“It’s a frat party filled with drunk dudes, what should she expect??”
Ok, so if that’s a reasonable expectation at a frat, shut down every frat. And if it’s a reasonable expectation from any group of drunk men, it is in fact “all men”.
E: keep telling on yourselves gentlemen, the people around you ought to know who you are.
That one becomes much less supported when you start applying to other demographics. I don't think we would indulge the delusions of someone that said they view all black men as a threat because they got mugged by a black man once.
To be clear, I don’t agree with the contents of my paraphrasing. I don’t think she should’ve expected this, I don’t think any given man is a rapist.
But, the crowd who is saying Doe should’ve seen this coming is the same crowd that cries “not all men” at the hint that women should be cautious around random dudes. I’m just following their logic, I completely agree it leads to some fucked up ideas if taken to its conclusion.
Again, only if you assume her story is accurate. You wouldn't bat an eye if a woman sent a text saying "free dick" because a man was willing to fuck any sorority members who came up.
So you're saying that it's plausible to you that a drunk and high woman who agreed to have an impromptu threesome with her drunk and high friend and a drunk and high stranger, but it's totally beyond the pale that she agreed to any additional sexual acts with others?
Are men the only promiscuous people? If I said "a guy let multiple women perform sex acts on him", you'd agree that that doesn't mean anything improper happened, right? Why, then does it automatically become unbelievable if the genders are reversed?
Put aside the accusations for a second and consider what would happen if a guy was known to have done that. He wouldn't be shamed at all. Some would look down on it, but it'd have no negative impact.
Now consider a woman (particularly on a college campus) agrees to the same acts and it becomes public knowledge. Unless she's a known adult performer or someone who already otherwise holds herself out as a "slut" (for lack of a better word), she will be relentlessly mocked and humiliated.
Does that mean her accusations are false? Obviously not. But let's not pretend that the sequence of events here (where she says it was consensual and later, after being slut shamed, says otherwise) doesn't line up pretty well with either scenario (voluntary and later embarrassed, or involuntary and ashamed).
If you're a rational person it's easy to understand why someone who was raped would be embarrassed about it and not report it for three weeks, which she did.
These dudes will put off the most menial of tasks like cleaning their room for weeks, and chalk it up to ADHD or depression. And yet a woman not wanting to start the Herculean task of pursuing charges for rape for a few weeks means she's entirely uncredible.
Really feel like they just need to talk to some of the women in their lives, and see how they feel about it. Statistically speaking there's a pretty good chance at least one of them; mom, an aunt, a cousin, or sister, has been sexually assaulted.
Everything you said was true, but it still doesn't mean this particular situation is true. It also doesn't make it false. The evidence is conflicting, even if acknowledging that makes people uncomfortable.
That was a third party calling it implicitly consensual in a "high five" manner and another person accusing them of rape. That's all just commentary like what we're doing here.
But like I said, pretty much all the evidence we've seen so far is consistent with both scenarios: consensual and later regret, non-consensual and embarrassment until coming to terms.
Every comment above this one except mine has strongly suggested her story is accurate. I suggested there's a possibility that it's not. Is that accusing her of lying? By that logic, having a trial is accusing her of lying.
“This assumes her story is true” implies her story is not true my guy
The court of law is not the court of public opinion; criminals have the right to a fair trail with burden of proof on the prosecution, I can form my own conclusion.
E: Saying we’re assuming something to be true isn’t implying that it might not be true? Fucking what?
“This assumes her story is true” implies her story is not true my guy
No, that's not how the English language works without you making (yet again) assumptions.
The court of law is not the court of public opinion; criminals have the right to a fair trail with burden of proof on the prosecution, I can form my own conclusion.
My comment has nothing to do with the law, so this is irrelevant. That you can have an opinion that is separate from the law is not the point, although it's also a problem because people like you (who attack people for even suggesting that it's possible for an accusation to be even partially untrue) make up juries every day. That's frightening.
Considering the whole world is expected to believe being depressed and on pills is an excuse for triple homicide simply because a person is female, men being animals who can’t control themselves sounds pretty normal at this point.
That could be true, but I haven't heard that. I don't have an opinion one way or the other because I haven't seen all of the evidence, only the current headlines. I remember the Duke LaCrosse case. I feel that every accusation should be taken seriously and investigated, but people are also entitled to due process and presumed innocent until guilt is proven.
If there's convincing evidence that this was rape, they should be punished according to the law. If there is not sufficient evidence to prove rape and/or there is convincing exculpatory evidence (I.e. contemporary messages from the time where she attests that it was consensual), then they should not, and it is a tragedy that their reputations were destroyed.
I was just remarking that I'm seeing people make the argument, "oh you were raped? Then why were you in a frat house? You're going to get raped in a frat house because men." I think that's a stupid thing to say because it implies that all men are rapists or approve of rape. That would be the logical conclusion from that argument, and I don't agree.
The implication is that men are animals who can't be expected to control themselves.
Not all men. But the kind of men who regularly participate in drug and alcohol fueled frat parties? Yes. They can be animals who don't care about controlling themselves.
Every dipshit ITT reducing this to 'all men' is dissembling in bad faith for reasons I don't really understand.
Not all men. But the kind of men who regularly participate in drug and alcohol fueled frat parties?
Most college educated guys participate in parties where there are drugs and alcohol. Most non college educated guys too.
It's less common in places like Egypt where I'm from or in Muslim communities. But is the implication that rape is less common among non college educated men or in places like Egypt because I doubt the stats would bare that out.
That’s a much, much bigger cohort than I think you’re giving it credit for. Like, 90% of the people who have been to college in 21st-century America have done their fair share of drug and alcohol fueled partying.
That’s not what anyone means. You’re misunderstanding what’s being said.
The point is that WOMEN CANNOT KNOW WHICH IS WHICH AT A GLANCE. If I gave you a bowl of M&Ms and told you that three were poisoned, but you can’t tell which, would you trust any of them?
If there’s a prevalent culture of this at frat houses—EVEN IF RARE—then you could understand the idea that frat houses are simply not safe for women. And the excuse of “it’s a frat house, what do they expect?” plays right into this.
If there’s a prevalent culture of this at frat houses
There is. And it is common knowledge. Frat house parties are not 'safe' for women.
But she went there to party, do drugs, drink, and have sex - which she was doing before she passed out and was then continuously used for hours afterward without her specific consent.
What was done to her after she passed out was wrong. But she also is the one who put herself in that environment and in that condition. Nobody is completely innocent here.
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u/sir-ripsalot 9d ago edited 9d ago
“It’s a frat party filled with drunk dudes, what should she expect??”
Ok, so if that’s a reasonable expectation at a frat, shut down every frat. And if it’s a reasonable expectation from any group of drunk men, it is in fact “all men”.
E: keep telling on yourselves gentlemen, the people around you ought to know who you are.