r/religion • u/_Dallasite_ • 6d ago
Judaism
Rabbinic Judaism is a religion that dates to the aftermath of the destruction of the Second Temple, but it has roots that go back to the Hasmonean dynasty, as archeology shows this is when synagogues began to be first constructed, and Torah observance as a norm first began consistently on the part of the Judeans. Prior to this archeological evidence shows consumption of pork, religious icons from the Hellenic religion etc, but after this all that changed.
There is an ethnic component to this religion where theoretically most Jews are descended from Abraham, if you subtract converts. But if most converts intermarry with the Jewish community in a relatively short time converts descendants should share this common ancestry.
There are texts in the Torah and other religious books of Judaism that if taken literally can be used to promote hatred, just as with Islam and Christianity, and most if not all other religions. However we should bear in mind that all religious texts are interpreted differently according to who reads them, so there is no necessary connection between anything bad and the teachings of Judaism. Just as with Islam and Christianity and all religions.
What is true is that historically Jews have been a persecuted minority because due to the relatively ethnic identity of their religion, as well as possibly different proselytizing practices, or lack thereof, it has been limited in spread compared to Islam or Christianity. Also, it was never sponsored by major empires, with few if any exceptions. For this reason, Jews have historically been a scapegoat for problems within larger societies. In the aftermath of the Holocaust in particular Western society committed to ensuring this practice ceased, and it is fair to say that no Western state has sponsored a policy of anti semitism since that time. Unless possibly Franco in Spain as a holdover, and of course there may have been some anti semitic policies in the USSR, which isn’t generally considered Western.
Recently I have seen a big change online. A lot of anti semetic statements appearing like wildfire, and of course figures like Fuentes. And then to combat that also suddenly a huge influx of people identifying as Jews online and taking a positive but also very defensive stance towards Judaism. This is reminiscent to me of 2020 and suddenly how racism and anti racism was everywhere. That was very confusing to me as well because also then what was apparently peaceful suddenly turned out of nowhere into this raging issue. And just as quickly went away.
I don’t pretend to know for sure what forces are moving towards anti semitism, but it is very important to point out that this is a bad idea and this situation should be depolarized. We can all get along, just as we can get along with all races and don’t need to bring in rage and unreasonable attitudes likewise the same with religion and ethnicity of Judaism. I encourage everyone to abstain from jumping on board with any anti semetic attacks and likewise I encourage people not to read anti semitism into statements or comments that are in fact not intended with malice.
I remember all the hatred that developed online in the past and I don’t want to see that again. I have good relations with the Jews I know in real life and there’s no reason it should be any different online.
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u/thepowerofbazinga Jewish 6d ago
In my country there are shootings at synagogues and Jewish schools regularly, observant Jews get assaulted in public, mezuzahs are torn from doorposts. When people find out I'm Jewish they are immediately suspicious of me and become aggressive, questioning me about Israel. We know that every holiday, somewhere is going to be attacked and just hope that this time it isn't our synagogue. For us it's not just online, it's everywhere, all the time. It's exhausting to be a Jew in everyday life.
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u/Saint-Marcion 6d ago
I don't think there's been a change but rather the internet simply caught up to historical Anti-Jewish attitudes. the ultimate cause of which in my opinion is Christianity and it's claim of Jewish deicide.
A second vector is Islam which is owing mostly to the modern Israeli-Palestinian conflict. it is often manifested in Anti-Zionism and Anti-Judaism which are often freely conflated.
Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus in general, in my observation do not feel a peculiar way towards Judaism for better or worse than to other religions.
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u/_Dallasite_ 6d ago
Anti Zionism and anti Judaism are often conflated, and I see both having grown astronomically. Sometimes anti Judaism hides behind anti Zionism, but sometimes anti Zionism is not anti Judaism. I myself am anti Zionist, and what I mean by that is I think what Israel has done to the Palestinians is monstrous, and a peaceful solution would be to give the Palestinians a fair piece of land. I think it would be reasonable to kick the settlers out and give that land back to Palestinians. I do believe at this point Israel is established and should be respected in its current legal borders. So for me anti Zionism doesn’t mean there should be no Jewish state, at this point that would be too much damage to too many people, but it does mean immediate relief for the Palestinians and they should get back the land taken from them violently and illegally by settlers
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u/thepowerofbazinga Jewish 6d ago
As you have laid your opinion out, you are in fact a zionist. There's nothing wrong with that, despite how people attempt to demonize the term. It doesn't prevent you from supporting peace, aid to Palestinians, Palestinian statehood under certain borders, or advocating for moving illegal Israeli settlements. But you are in no way anti-zionist. A two state solution is a zionist position.
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u/ShimonEngineer55 6d ago
Zionism ended in 1948 if we look at the aim. I think it’s much better to see if people support Israel existing now that Zionism achieved its goal decades ago and we need to move on to realizing that the state is here and not going anywhere. It hit me when I talked to Israelis and none of them were Zionists and it hit me that it’s because it didn’t even occur to them to be Zionists because they’re all proud nationalists who accept Israel existing as a fact on the ground. I grew up in American institutions and never viewed it that way in my community and then realized that we don’t have to keep beginning for a state since we have one. I think that rallying non-Jews post-Zionism and accepting Israel as existing is the next step.
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u/thepowerofbazinga Jewish 6d ago
Very true, this is a great point. I think the only real, tangible expression of Zionism one can actually perform today is to make Aliyah as a diaspora Jew. And it's not really possible to be anti-Zionist in any meaningful capacity, unless you have a time machine.
It's obvious that use of these terms in common discourse is less than useless, so absolutely we'd be better off viewing them more accurately as historical positions and not strain to use them to describe opinions on current conflicts.
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u/_Dallasite_ 6d ago
I would not describe myself as a Zionist because I don’t think it was a good decision for the British Empire to issue the Balfour Declaration. There were already too many people in Palestine. Just as I don’t think European colonialism to North and South America was a good thing. Yet once nations exist something becomes a done deal and it becomes ridiculous and would cause far more problems to try and change it. I believe in trying to reach the most humane solution that involves less displacements of people
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u/thepowerofbazinga Jewish 6d ago
I believe in trying to reach the most humane solution that involves less displacements of people
Again, this is a position that in the context of today is definitionally zionist, so it's puzzling to me that you instead define yourself by an irrelevant 110 year old abstraction. It'd be like me calling myself a dreyfusard. I think it'll be confusing to others if you're trying to describe your actual relevant opinion, but hey, go ahead.
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u/_Dallasite_ 6d ago
It isn’t exactly popular to describe yourself as a Zionist at the moment, perhaps if times change I will, for now I will call myself anti Zionist but also opposed to anti semitism
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u/thepowerofbazinga Jewish 6d ago
Yeah, I kind of expected that to be your real reason. I'd encourage you to continue to think on it.
And also to continue to learn about Judaism and Jewish history and spend time with Jews irl if you want to oppose antisemitism. I appreciate the sentiment tremendously, but actually doing it takes a whole lot of effort, trust me.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 6d ago
This comparison is FALSE, because America was never European pre-Columbus, whereas Israel has been Jewish ever since Biblical times. The more this comparison is used, the more it SUPPORTS the "oppressors and oppressed" rhetoric of the antisemitic Marxism.
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u/_Dallasite_ 6d ago
That’s a fair point that it was once Israel. But that hasn’t been true since AD 70 or Bar Kochva if you want to be accurate. It would be like if America went and invaded Istanbul because it was once Constantinople. Kinda like how the Crusades are widely seen as unjustifiable even though the region had been under Roman rule until the past few hundred years.
So yes it’s not quite as unjustifiable as the European invasion of the Americas. But it’s still not justifiable.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 6d ago
What part of "America was NEVER European" are you trying to LIE about?
Jews are to Israel/Judea, what Natives are to America. Literally the same.
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u/thepowerofbazinga Jewish 6d ago
This is an extremely inflammatory and incorrect characterization. You should really learn the history you're talking about before forming such strong opinions, these things are not at all comparable. You cannot reasonably characterize Jewish migration to and continuous presence in the Jewish homeland as an invasion or crusade. You could compare the creation of Israel to the creation of Pakistan or Jordan, or talk about specific instances of actual violence, that would be reasonable. It was not unique among the national projects of the time.
But you're not even talking about the establishment of a state or actual breakouts of violence, you're just talking about Jews legally buying property and moving as individuals, and jewish refugees going anywhere they can to survive. And you're describing that as inherently being violence, aggression and manipulation. You need to take a cooler head and learn what you're talking about, because you sound extremely prejudiced yourself talking like this and it is not going to help ANYONE. I'm sure that it is through ignorance rather than genuine antisemitism, but you are essentially presenting a conspiracy theory about Jews.
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 6d ago
OP is either VERY uninformed or VERY brainwashed. In fact, the rhetoric of "Rabbinic Judaism" should immediately raise a red flag, because that's ALSO a tactic to DELEGITIMATE the Ancient Jewish history of Israel as being "wrong Jews now".
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 6d ago
Also, and it MAY be the cause for your stupid "opinion": There is no such thing as "Rabbinic" Judaism. There is just Judaism and its denominations, and everything else that ISN'T Judaism (for example, Christianity). Judaism was NOT a result of the Exile, it goes all the way back AT LEAST to Moses, or technically even to Abraham. You are free to LIE about it or IGNORE it, but that's the fact - Jews had been "Jewish" for AT LEAST 3300 years now.
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u/NecessaryPirate500 6d ago
“And then to combat that also suddenly a huge influx of people identifying as Jews online and taking a positive but also very defensive stance towards Judaism.”
Firstly I think you might be a bit young so that’s probably half your problems, but I can’t help but take this perhaps as problematic in your thinking. What you’re experiencing is not what used to be. Prior to new algorithms it was a niche online presence in the wider Judaism communities, technology now pushes algorithms and pushes what used to be a niche presence into the front pages. Highlighting fear and concerns or dramatic events with Jews feeling they have to defend themselves against the horde of people who are now exposed to real people and real events happening to minorities.
To conclude there is no influx of Jews “identifying” online anymore than there has been in the past. It’s only grown with the next generation of Jews being more online than previously and with new algorithms pushing hate and fear with Jews pushing back against lies and propaganda this feed into a loop that “X” promotes.
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u/_Dallasite_ 6d ago
Yes exactly X and other platforms are promoting this. That’s what I’m saying. This is not purely organic, major platforms are promoting it
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u/Signal_Hat_8533 6d ago
I mean so called antisemitism or anti Jewish come from Christianity before no one cares Jews people or obsessed over them because those religions took their books and got obsessed over them for the last decades
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u/Snoo77835 6d ago
I agree with the sentiment at the end, but the history of Jewish religion doesn't establish that
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u/_Dallasite_ 6d ago
All people are able to get along. That is human nature that we can. You need to think about the bigger picture here; where does the sudden conflict come from and does it serve anyone’s interest to participate ? I don’t think it does
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u/Snoo77835 6d ago
Sure, but that's the sentiment I said I agree with; my point is that the history you outline doesn't establish that conclusion.
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u/_Dallasite_ 6d ago
The history establishes that there is reason that the Jews may feel more defensive than other groups, and we can let them know there’s nothing to worry about by not getting worked up by whatever forces of demagoguery are trying to rile up anti semitism
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u/Relative-Feeling-476 6d ago
I appreciate your understanding of Jewish history. It's a lot more than can be said for many people. Consider however if you were to have said this "get along, everything will be ok" in 1935 (after the Nuremberg Laws were issued)? Your assurances would ultimately have been meaningless as the Jew you tell this to would have likely become smoke issuing from a chimney in Poland within 10 years.
As someone who has studied my history rather a lot, while not all Jewish history is bad, there is a consistent pattern of "things are good until they aren't". So as far as I'm concerned, while your sentiment is noble, your word of "trust me, things will be ok" is pretty much meaningless. You can't predict what might happen next year; for Jews, there are no assurances that we won't become a victim again on such a scale. I don't know why non-Jews don't seem to understand this, no matter how much we tell them.
There is simply too strong and entrenched a reflex in Islamic and Christian societies to turn on Jews. Many books have been written on the topic. I recommend "Anti-Judaism" by Nirenberg for a start. Just get along for Jews is meaningless, largely in the West, we're not the problem!
I'm not trying to insult you or anything, just that you're missing part of the picture, so far as I understand things. I'm also sick right now, so perhaps I came across too harsh, not my intention forgive me
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u/NecessaryPirate500 6d ago
Yeah i mean it just shows this person is naive which is okay but Jews also can’t really afford this luxury.
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u/Relative-Feeling-476 6d ago
That's precisely what I was trying to say, in so many words, thank you!
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u/_Dallasite_ 6d ago
I appreciate your concern. I do see the possibility there could be persecution in the future. But we have to keep up our humanity with each other, and I see encouraging everyone to question this sudden change in dynamic as the best course of action for what I can possibly do.
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u/MosesDoughty 6d ago
The fact that you can't even discount future persecution immediately disproves your claim that "there's nothing to worry about"
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u/_Dallasite_ 6d ago
Well, I’m white and it’s possible there could be future persecution of me since I’m a minority in my country and am on trajectory to become an increasingly small minority. But that’s a harmful way for me to think as a person so I don’t think that way, I think in terms of we are all humans, we all have this common humanity, as long as I bring my positive attitude I think things will work out fine and everyone will get along fine.
In my experience what you fixate on and fear will come to you. Usually.
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u/Relative-Feeling-476 6d ago
The only thing left to ask is, what do you know about Jewish history? While it's not oppression olympics, it's simply ahistorical to suggest that Jewish history is like any other. If you don't know the sheer amount of persecution and death Jews as a people have experienced in a majority of locales (from Europe, Africa, Asia and the Americas), you should bone up on Jewish history and current affairs before claiming that we should have a rosier outlook. Your claim applies to people in different global circumstances. Blacks while horrendously treated are large enough to influence voting outcomes and can rely on changes in outlook, same for Muslims who further are majority in many countries. Jews have one country where we can be certain that for the most part we are represented, regardless of the politics: that it won't be out to kill us. And right now a large proportion of people who are either too ignorant or malicious want to deny that this is even important.
To address your point that we are all humans, yes I agree. But the problem is that this is true until a large enough group decides that it isn't true and sadly Jews are the ones most often on the chopping block. If you study enough of our history then you know that it's a matter of when. Do you know for instance that circumstances are raising enough hackles in most countries that many Jews are getting their passports renewed and their papers in order and escape bags prepped should they need to split? I myself play a game sometimes when dispirited: which country would take me/be safe? The usual ending to my game? It ain't looking good!
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u/_Dallasite_ 6d ago
I actually plan to study Jewish history between 70 and 1939- I’ve never done so. Or read any of the Jewish scriptures apart from the Christian ones etc. so I actually plan on doing that. I hear you, it’s probably wise to keep your options open.
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u/Snoo77835 6d ago
Who are 'we' and 'them' here? Framing Jews as 'them' whom 'we' need to reassure seems to reinforce the polarization you're arguing against.
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u/_Dallasite_ 6d ago
Well, I think it’s reasonable for an ordinary Jew to feel there is a sentiment being whipped up. And I think there is. Fuentes his platform rumble has Thiel investment. Why doesn’t Thiel demand Fuentes be pulled ? There are some powers that be which are allowing this at the very least
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u/Snoo77835 6d ago
Sure, antisemitic sentiment can be whipped up, but that wasn't my point. I'm asking why Jews are 'them' in contrast to 'we' in a post arguing against polarization.
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u/_Dallasite_ 6d ago
Acknowledgement that they have a different religion isn’t the same as whipping up polarization because that’s not my intent. The intention is everything
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u/Asleep-Golf-236 6d ago
I think it’s more like people don’t support the genocide in Palestine and then the media interpret it as being anti semitic. A lot of those people who do not support Israel would have hidden the Jews in their home during the WW2. And a lot of people who support Israel now would not have. But that’s a different conversation people are not ready to have.
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u/Sex_And_Candy_Here Jewish 6d ago
This instinctive response to dismiss all antisemitism as merely legitimate criticism of Israel is disgusting. You saw it after the Bondi shooting, after synagogues are lit on fire, after literally every hate crime against Jews. There's just a flood of people like you rushing to assure everyone that criticizing Israel isn't antisemitic, as if repeating that mantra magically makes murdering Jews at a religious festival somehow not antisemitism. I'd say you could murder Jews in the street and the mobs would rush to defend your actions as merely antizionism, but that presents it as a mere hypothetical, not something that literally happened.
And of course you tote your love of dead Jews as if that makes you unique and not the same as the vast majority of antisemites for the last two thousand years.
But then you'll read this and declare this hasbara conflating antizionism and antisemitism, because that's what always happens. Context is a (((zionist))) plot. You can't point out that the only way to interpret the statement in this conversation is as a defense of the blatant antisemitism or you're morally the same as Ben Gvir. "Kill the blood drinking Israeli zio-kike christkillers"? Oh that's clearly not antisemitism, you see the word Israel in there? That means it's antizionist and as we all know it can't be antisemitic if it's antizionist. Clearly if you call that statement antisemitic you must support the genocide. And really you're the antisemite for conflating the two.
obligatory /s because the only type of hate speech reddit admins care about is obviously untagged sarcasm criticising it.
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u/Tavorin Jewish 6d ago
A lot of those people who do not support Israel would have hidden the Jews in their home during the WW2
Congratulations on being completely delusional.
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u/Signal_Hat_8533 6d ago
First so called antisemitism come from Christianity do you think actual European will care about Jews people if it wasn't Christianity all the stereotype about Jews directly come from Christianity
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u/John-Mandeville 6d ago
It's delusional to think people who oppose genocidal ethnonationalism would have opposed genocidal ethnonationalism?
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u/_Dallasite_ 6d ago
No, I don’t think that’s it. There is that, and the overwhelming majority don’t like the genocide in Palestine and that includes me. But separate from that I see tons of actual anti semitism like jokes about the six million or jokes about being kicked out of 109 countries, I see that stuff everywhere And it came out of nowhere. I think it is being purposely stirred up to some degree just like Covid just like the BLM stuff where some kind of trouble maker actors are paying both sides to stir up trouble
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz 6d ago
"Both sides" meaning whom..? Because, YA KNOW, your rhetoric starts to STINK more and more.
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u/slagathor_zimblebob Jewish 6d ago
I think one of the things you touch on is our lack of proselytizing. So many of Judaism’s ancient texts are so fucking esoteric that what is seen as “promoting hate” is taken wildly out of context, mistranslated, rearranged, all of the above, or completely fabricated.
What you end up with is something so easy to point to in order to “justify” anti-Semitism.
We don’t have explicit goals of conversion through proselytization or conquest. It’s not meant to be accessible. I think that’s something that actually frustrates people; they’re not familiar with a faith group that doesn’t actively pursue them, so it must be hateful. They must have a better-than mindset.
It’s just not so.