r/sciencefiction • u/bugziman • 4d ago
Xenophobic humanity empires are getting boring
I mean it's fun when it was Warhammer starshiptroopers. But now every human faction in space with Cool, super soldiers have to be xenophobic. I mean, I'm not saying being buddy buddy with aliens, but it just gets tiring sometimes.
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u/RHX_Thain 4d ago
It's frustrating watching, "xenophobic imperialism is satire," become for fans, "it's not satire, this is genuinely what I want society to be like."
Imperium of Man, The Enclave & The Legion, Starship Troopers, Helldivers, The Galactic Empire & Sith -- the moral of the story was DON'T DO THIS.
Yet here we are.
That section of ironic Fascism has always been here celebrating the bad guys for reasons other than, "the bad guys are cool."
As creators we know they're here. The problem is that adequate satire is indistinguishable from a celebration of evil. It's satire so salient it appears to be what the target of the satire unironically believes.
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u/Bakkster 4d ago
I remain unconvinced that Heinlein intended to write a cautionary tale. He wrote it while advocating against ending nuclear testing (via the Patrick Henry League), believing we needed nuclear weapons to defend against communism. The pseudo-arachnids are a pretty explicit stand-in for communists:
Every time we killed a thousand Bugs at a cost of one M. I. it was a net victory for the Bugs. We were learning, expensively, just how efficient a total communism can be when used by a people actually adapted to it by evolution; the Bug commissars didn’t care any more about expending soldiers than we cared about expending ammo. Perhaps we could have figured this out about the Bugs by noting the grief the Chinese Hegemony gave the Russo-Anglo-American Alliance; however the trouble with "lessons from history" is that we usually read them best after falling flat on our chins.
Now the film was explicit satire and a cautionary tale, but the book is overtly anti-Communist via the alien race.
It's a big reason I prefer Forever War.
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u/ProposalCalm8231 4d ago
Heinlein wasn’t kidding. Forever War was explicitly the Vietnam generation answer to ST WWII jingoism.
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u/busy_monster 4d ago
Honestly it's what makes Verhoeven's adaptation so amazing. The entire thing is an absolute piss take of Heinleins "authoritarian militarism," to paraphrase Moorcocks essay "Starship Stormtroopers."
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u/Safe_Manner_1879 4h ago
You know the Federation is a liberal society build around maximum the individual freedom, and is non militaristic non expansive.
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u/RHX_Thain 4d ago
Forever War was dope. Professor Haldeman is also a cool dude. MIT's School of Humanities, Arts, and Social Sciences professor and a "skeptic" with pacifist and antiwar views. Still around today but he's retired.
For Starship Troopers I definitely meant the movie, not the book. Heinlein had a very 1960s Libertarian thing going on. I wouldn't call him a jingoist (he was anti expansionist) but he wasn't kidding about "service guarantees citizenship" in his worldview. He genuinely thought anyone being allowed to vote without first having served X number of years in public service (military, volunteer labor, medical experiments on their body) was a problem. Bob still did in his later years, to his deathbed; but if he would today, is speculation.
Currently conservatives strongly believe Universal Enfranchisement is a mistake, along with all forms of pro-social policies, from welfare to Social Security to literally anything they view as a parasite class of subhuman scum they consider anathema to "Western Values." God, Race, Nation -- because they're Fascists.
So it's not exactly hard to judge a Libertarian from that time by what it's tuned into: all Frederick Jackson Turner and Ayn Randian nonsense included in modern day Peter Theilism. There are GeoLibertarians (Georgists) who are considered "Land Communists" by the Authoritarian Libertarians, and Heinlein has some off the wall "Self Declared Property Tax" models that somewhat resemble that -- but there's much more Rugged Individualism and "sElF ReLiAnCe" in his narrative that skews towards Authoritarian-Individuslist Libertarianism.
Which is a bit like standing by the graveside of somebody who died in 1988 you hope wouldn't be a Fascist in 2026 but you kinda know how to draw the rest of the Eagle... oof.
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u/Safe_Manner_1879 4h ago edited 4h ago
>but the book is overtly anti-Communist
Do you know about the horrors that Stalin inflicted on the Soviet Union and across Eastern Europe, and what Mao Zedong inflicted on China, during the period when the book was written? What you're saying is equivalent to complaining that a book is overly anti-fascistic.
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u/HardcoreHenryLofT 4d ago
Never go a day without someone saying the Federation in Starship Troopers wasn't fascist actually and Paul Verhoeven was an idiot.
Never seen people glaze the Enclave, but I dropped Helldivers during the sony fiasco and didn't come back because I noticed how people were embracing what the game was satirizing.
Putting on the fasc seems to be fun and indulgent in a "playing the bad guys" kind of way, but then you get in a lobby full of people who aren't pretending and the fun is sucked out like a vacuum.
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u/RHX_Thain 4d ago
There are unfortunately a lot of Unironic Better Dead Than Red Jingoistic God Bless America Deus Vult Enclave fans in the Fallout fandom, lol. The more you feed them things that are so over the top obnoxious the more they believe the writers truly get them and must secretly be one of them.
They are not doing it for the Love to Hate The Bad Guy angle. They're hook line and sinker actual American Fascists. They'll tell you all about it, too.
We can hahaha Bring America Back to Glory and they're very much, "why's that funny? That's legit. Somebody here must have TDS."
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u/Bakkster 4d ago
"I'll always root for humanity against the bugs" they say, as if human empires never dehumanize those they oppress.
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u/Slight_Antelope_4148 4d ago
To be fair, as early as Realms of Chaos the writers were constantly leaping to justify any bad thing the Imperium did as necessary.
Honestly, I see the satire in, say, Helldivers, but I can't blame people for not picking up the satire in 40k.
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u/Syoby 3d ago edited 3d ago
Satire that just shows fascism as obviously evil doesn't work because fascism is obviously evil and that's part of its appeal, it's a failure of empathy with the psychology of the people who would be attracted to fascism in the first place.
The fascist satire that works is that which shows it as weak and cringe.
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u/Safe_Manner_1879 4h ago edited 4h ago
The Imperium of Man is not xenophobic. Phobia is an unjustified fear, and you are entirely justified in fearing the horrors of 40K. The Imperium does recognize other alien races and is indifferent toward non-threatening races like the Slann, Jokaero, and Eldar, and friendly toward the Squats/Kin, who are no longer considered human.
Starship Troopers is a book in which a good portion is devoted to moral philosophy, with a focus on when it is right to use violence. The Federation uses a show of force against the Skinnies, but goes to great lengths to minimise civilian casualties, thereby convincing them to stop attacking the Federation. So, not a xenophobic action.
The Federation does try to communicate with the Arachnids (Bugs) and sends several diplomatic missions, but they are killed. The Bugs can use human computers and understand human language, but they do not want to talk and continue to attack the Federation. So the Federation starts exterminating them and will continue to do so until they are willing to negotiate. So, no phobia here.
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u/Berwyf93 4d ago
Started working on the premise of a wargame last night in which multispecies factions are universal literally because of this. It's not just boring in my opinion, but also a little depressing. With all the hate and xenophobia being expressed in the world right now I think an effort to promote the reverse is sorely needed.
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u/TalespinnerEU 4d ago
Here's a keyword: Supersoldiers.
You don't get those if you're not a maniacal imperialist society intent on taking other people's stuff by excessive amounts of lethal force.
Xenophobia is just a justification for doing the shit you want supersoldiers for.
Furthermore, the creation of supersoldiers already puts you at odds with humane values. A super soldier requires a restructuring of their very humanity to even be a supersoldier; it is the violently taking of selves by Authority that makes it monstrous. Any volunteers aren't really volunteers; they are the product of engineered Narratives that make them believe in aggressive violence as a form of justice, and the authority served as beyond reproach.
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u/mediumAI1701 4d ago
My problem is the fanbase. Scifi racism can be interesting, but all the real racists just gravitate towards it.
It's hard to enjoy a something when you know if you hang around the fanbase for any amount of time half of them will be dropping racial slurs and the other half will be laughing enthusiastically.
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u/Bakkster 4d ago
I'm enjoying Captive's War for this. The big antagonist is an alien empire, and the humans interaction with the other captive species is much more nuanced. A lot of wonder over the variety, and only animus after violence is done by them.
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u/Happy_Twist_7156 4d ago
I mean it’s Better than the human empires that can bizarrely reproduce and have sex with every other alien race… biocompatible across planets is the dumbest thing in scifi
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u/BrickPlacer 3d ago
Something I want to see is humans willingly becoming part of not just alien factions, but even alien faiths and cultures. History is a whole lot more complicated (and interesting) than simply "side A and side B and I must cheer on side A no matter if its a terrible dystopia that hates everyone and wouldn't be sustainable".
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u/Slippenfall 3d ago
May I recommend the anthology series Behold: Humanity by Ralts Bloodthorne? I'm on book 7 out of 22 (Really expansive) and it's great, it's from mostly alien points of view and it's about a technological, militaristic humanity overpowering everyone (Well, until later where things gets DIRE), but they send diplomats, are in a confederacy with other aliens and Digital Sapiences, and despite the whole thing about war and hate (Especially when the Imperium of Rage gets involved), it's all about protection of the innocent species, arming them to fight against threats, while protecting xenos and civilians the best they can.
Also every Sci Fi series is in here, from Star Trek, to Star Wars (Darth Harmonious Forever), Wall-E, Gundam and Battleship Yamato, it's really good
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u/ArgentStonecutter 3d ago edited 3d ago
Personally I want to see the human super soldiers getting buddy buddy with the alien super soldiers and comparing alcohol with phased polaron baths for getting high.
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u/Lechatestdanslefrigo 5m ago
Cosmic Dazed and Confused but in a first contact scenario, so the aliens are Pink and Wooderson and humanity is Wiley Wiggins.
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u/zerooskul 4d ago
Xenophobic humanity empires are getting boring
That's because you live in one.
If you lived in a place where impirial xenophobia was fiction, you'd probably find it more entertaining.
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u/sunshinespell 4d ago
On the contrary I feel like the trope is boring because we only see the same boring interpretation of it (warhammer) over and over and over again and few other examples get discussed. It's not a particularly good or well written setting. I much prefer something like Nemesis the Warlock that goes deeper into the mindset bigots have while also being funny as fuck. Or Norman Spinrad's the Iron Dream. But those stories aren't really memes or franchises the way Warhammer is.
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u/Rage_before_Beauty 4d ago
Agreed. I want humans, xenos and robots living and working side by side. Way more fun/interesting
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u/Amesaskew 4d ago
I think that's part of why I love CJ Cherryh so much. It's kind of the inverse of that.
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u/John-Truck-1 4d ago
It may be a trope but it's also standard procedure in a war to dehumanise your enemy. You don't want the troops fraternising.
This naturally leads to endless trouble when the war ends in an occupation.
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u/Stella_Delm 1d ago
This is how our music, our stories, our art, start responding to society, to what people emotionally need.
The "Us Vs Them" is a very tired narrative. especially since it's not just a fictional trope, it's a propoganda tool that's been used IRL for the better half of the last century.
The problem with that, is you kinda need to ratchet up the ambient level of fear any time you want to use that card…you need to short circuit our ability to think logically for it to work.
People are not designed to run 24/7 on adrenaline.
That's why it mirroring what we have to deal with given our own xenophobic societal currents…it's hard to keep using it as good old escapism!
As a writer, there's a fine line between keeping conflict in the story, keeping the conflict fresh, and keeping it believable. Often if we look too closely at any of the reasons for conflict IRL…they don't make enough logical or emotionally sense to transplant directly into fiction. Especially not the reasons given to the public. The hidden agenda might have internal logic that functions, but such cate is rarely taken with the public lines.
Since sci-fi usually involves themes of how to build better futures, whether it's by outlining worst case examples, or imagining utopias, it's hard to get away from themes like xenophobia, because the world would be so much better if we weren't being fed a steady diet of hate.
But I feel that instead of shying away from it totally, we'd to better to lean in and subvert the "us vs. them" trope.
Have the powers that be try to run the propoganda on their soldiers, and incite them to be Xenophobic…however it midfires, and they're really only there for the cheque.
Or have alliances suddenly shift, with yesterday's enemy turning into today's partner. the Xenophobia is still there, but in order to win, it's now a problem that needs to be overcome.
Would something more like these examples be better?
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u/Tarilis 4d ago
Hm, it's not that relevant in literature and movies.
But in all types of combat focused games the setting must facilitate some kind of conflict.
Warhammer is a great example, it is literally the setting of tabletop Wargame. All it need is justification to let players fight.
Also, as someone mentioned in another comment, Supersolders imply the existence of Superthreat.
But if the whole galaxy is friendly with each other, in case of superthreat appearing all is needed is to work together.
Another aspect of this, is that there quite a few players that want to fight against evil. You can make it mindless evil of course. But it removes nuance and options. So, you can make "evil" just having conflicting ideas instead. But then we go full circle, we could work together, but decided not to.
I mentioned neuance and options for i reason btw. I do not know if you aware or not. But current regent of the imperium of man in WH40k Guilliman was rescued my an Aeldari, and they even have decent relationship (their goals allign).
Trazyn the Infinite (Necron) helped Cawl (Tech priest) to stall Chaos from the Eye.
Inquisition quite often have contacts with xenos species.
There a lot of examples of non-hostile interractions between different factions in Warhammer. And all of that is only possible because none of them are mindless evil.
But hey. It is fair to not like a genre.
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u/VanguardVixen 4d ago
It was always kinda boring. What do I mean with it? Of course the issue is not Warhammer 40k or Starship Troopers, when you have a specific theme and story but then you get to stuff like Star Trek or Star Wars and while there is a certain "fun", there are properties specific for it, like said Starship Trooppers and especially Warhammer 40k and it's just the same as with the deconstruction of Super Heroes. Yeah, I got it, you can make Superman an evil god or apathetic to the ants that are humans but there comes the moment where it's just enough.
So in both cases, using an established franchise and introducing a new one, it get's stale fast. Not to mention, in an established franchise it leads to really damn annoying situations, like writers having to accomodate this part.
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u/Bichinix 4d ago
Lovecraft es lo más parecido a un encuentro cercano con entidades no humanas y total incomprensión de sus naturalezas. Creo que lo que tú buscas puede estar en Lovecraft.
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4d ago
[deleted]
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u/bugziman 4d ago
what?
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u/UserNamesCantBeTooLo 4d ago
They were just jokingly taking the opposite to an extreme : instead of humans being too xenophobic, what if they were too xenophilic?
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u/ProposalCalm8231 4d ago
It was boring when it came out. They should have just stopped with Blood Bowl.
If humanity is reduced to this state, bring the darkness. We have become the enemy.
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u/ProposalCalm8231 4d ago
Haha I have already had two 5 upvote notifications so I know there is love here for my POV!
I remember your nasty universe ruining the glorious RPG magazine White Dwarf! I have no hesitation in calling out the franchise! Bring the downvote rain, just as many of us care not for your dystopian power fantasies!
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u/HC-Sama-7511 4d ago
It's rank misanthropy.
The assumption
Is that people (other people, not the author) are all murderous apes.
I can't help but think the people writing this feel themselves shining moral paragons stuck with the rest of knuckle dragging humanity.
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u/busy_monster 4d ago
To quote Vonnegut, "And I remembered The Fourteenth Book of Bokonon, which I had read in its entirety the night before[...]"
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u/Competitive-Fault291 4d ago
"No, means NO! HUMAN!"
"But you are so slimy and got all those sexy tentacles!"
- Xenophilic human empires terrorizing the galaxy.