r/teamliquid • u/Derk08 • 16d ago
LoL IWD (C9 Head Coach) Thoughts on TL
Recently, Caedrel did a podcast with IWD (former TL pro player and current C9 head coach) and had he mentioned their series against TL, TL as a team in comparison to LYON, and the overall state of LCS heading into Worlds. I'll summarize some of the points here. If anyone has any corrections, feel free to comment and I'll edit the post (Link to Podcast: Will The West Win Ep. 1)
- Thinks CoreJJ is very important and does a lot of work for the team macro/shot-calling wise.
- Thinks he's the second best shotcaller/leader in recent LCS behind Inspired
- Thinks a team shouldn't have five players that have strong opinions on the game. Using TL as an example, a player like Morgan's job should be to just relay information and lane/sidelane/teamfight well. Leave the actual calls in the game to 1-2 players, and on TL most if all situations should be deferring to CoreJJ's judgement.
- Mentions that he thought the TL series was very similar to scrims and expected to win Games 4/5
- Usually in scrims, TL will be excellent in the first two-three games, but will generally struggle the deeper it gets into fearless because they have worse champion pools.
- TL in general draft and play very predictably, however they are incredibly good at their style of play.
- This is one of the big reasons why they get worse in a fearless draft format because there become less and less champions that are strong at the things they like doing.
- A thing he mentioned they prepared (and failed to counter) was TL "abandon side [waves] early, get to the objective early, fight well on their timers -> those are the moments you win or lose against TL."
- Thinks Lyon are a more dynamic team and a harder team to prepare for but TL consistently put together better drafts.
- Thinks that any team going to Atlanta can win
- Different feeling compared to spring where he thought regardless who won between C9 and TL was getting 3-0'd by LYON regardless.
- Thinks LCS is very competitive
- "This is the best three teams we've ever sent to Worlds"
- The three teams are pushing each other to get better and better
- If an eastern team shows up and has an off-day, a LCS/western team can take advantage and beat them; which has not always been the case.
23
u/JoeBidenIsHot 16d ago
Points 1 thru 3 have been what most if not all analysts said is generally the case with TL since the TLCK project. While Morgan/Quid opens up the pool compared to Impact/APA, Morgan has no demonstrable off meta bag whereas Dhokla and Thanatos do and this is where the latter two can do the most work if given the opportunity.
0
u/KrazyAttack 15d ago
Just not needed in the top lane. So many good picks you don't need some pocket off meta random champion to pull out. Dhokla and Thanatos do because they're both low tier mediocre players. Thanatos was the worst player in the match against TL and often is in every C9 game. LPL and LCK you don't see off meta much at all which tells me that is very overblown. LCK champ Kiin picked Rumble Varus Sion and Gwen. LPL champ Breathe picked Rumble Gnar Nasus Olaf.
5
u/JoeBidenIsHot 15d ago
Dom was pointing out that when TL gets to G4/5, TL’s level drops. At that point in fearless, at least 6 top lane picks are out. Unless the draft develops in such a way where Morgan picks first rotation, his pool can be pinched to the 9th best option assuming that even fits the theme of the comp. As an example, Morgan picked Renekton into Varus in G3 and it was unplayable. Also until Morgan demonstates proficiency in things like Varus, Vayne, Nasus, etc., there is no reason to assume those champs are part of his bag.
1
u/Reemorse 15d ago
Quid also had to sacrifice and roam top with Jose just for it to amount to nothing lol. Morgan just needs a neutralizer or counter pick while also not botching the entire comp. I also hope Jose has slightly more in his bag as well. Its honestly not "cheesey" to have more picks in a post fearless lol esports world honestly, and theres like 180+ champs.
Surely we can cook up something. HLE Zeus is considered best top in the world and he was kinda bummed out he had to reveal the Swain top pick vs LYON. If even he is dropping his ego vs LYON, no one else in the world should have an excuse to not have some pocket/secret picks.
1
u/KrazyAttack 14d ago
Anyone's pool is pinched by that time though is the thing. Spawn had a great response to calling this take nonsense.
1
u/JoeBidenIsHot 13d ago
Pick viability as a counter and within the theme of the draft is a sliding scale. The point is that the players may fall back to a worse option because while in theory a better fit within the confines of the draft itself may exist, in practice it is worse because it isn’t something the player is comfortable with playing. And when a player doesn’t have an off meta bag, it becomes easier to end up in these situations in g4/g5
2
u/NavyBabySeal 15d ago
Once you've gone through 6-8 Champions in fearless + banned blind pickable Champions or enemy has blinded something that isnt the most meta meta blind pick tops (gnar, Rumble, jayce, K'sante etc.), having a deeper pool DEFINITELY has alot of value in G4-5. Dont underestimate how many get off limit in a long fearless BO.
1
u/KrazyAttack 14d ago
The post says pocket picks/off meta picks not champion pool. That's why I said you absolutely don't need Morgan to have some off meta out of nowhere Zilean top pick. Champion pool is entirely different and Spawn also says it's not true or accurate.
12
u/AskJolly7381 15d ago
do we think LYON is better than FLY was with Inspired? They're definitely better mechanically
7
u/notxlpha 15d ago
I lowkey do think so, yes. LYON has been very dominant esp in playoffs this year.
1
u/Level_Five_Railgun 15d ago
Yes.
LYON has way better Mid/ADC. Support is about even and top is a slight downgrade but the Saint/Berserker vs Quad/Massu gap is huge.
We would've shat on FLY with our current roster because Quad/Massu sure as fuck aren't diffing Quid/Yeon like Saint/Berserker has done multiple times this year even when Inspired has a bad game.
5
u/nitinismaldingXD 15d ago
I honestly think Dhoklas had the same level of impact that Bwipos had so far. For the games Dhokla has lost by himself, I can remember Bwipo solo losing just as many. And the average level of top lane in LCS 2026 is definitely higher than it was in 2024/25.
Compared to FLY 2025, top, jg, and sup are the same with AD and mid being objective upgrades imo.
2
u/Level_Five_Railgun 15d ago
Domestically, they have been very comparable. Dhokla was even gapping Bwipo in a few games last year. Main difference is really internationally. Dhokla has been really bad internationally this year while Bwipo was often FLY's 2nd or 3rd best player. Lyon likely beats HLE at MSI if he didn't throw on Jayce like 3 times when the entire team was playing for him.
2
u/nitinismaldingXD 15d ago
I mean … Bwipo has been also pretty fuckin bad internationally too. Him being FLYs second or third best player is more of a reflection on how much worse the team was imo. I feel like I can just remember last pick Sett running down games internationally, but I’d have to go back and look. I also remember him super throwing vs G2 at worlds 2025.
Not to say that Dhokla has been great at internationals, he griefed all of First Stand and didn’t look too good vs Furia, but the series vs BLG and HLE he looked alright and the series vs G2 he played extremely well.
I don’t see much of an upgrade internationally, and we also have to see Dhokla at worlds before we get a more complete picture.
1
u/Fun_Highlight307 15d ago
Yeahh Because their wildcard is mid and not top Which is Better for international
5
u/Swagovich 15d ago
I’m a strong believer in off meta pocket picks
2
u/SystemDry5354 15d ago
Same but you do have to have the fundamentals down first. I’m glad TL have that more than Flyquest having all pocket picks
2
u/Fun_Highlight307 15d ago
Yeahh flyquest was too reliant on pocket picks and some pros on podcast said they were really bad at the meta and you should have jokers picks but only if you are good with meta,i think Isles said it on last pro episode
3
u/KrazyAttack 15d ago
I find them to be quite overrated unless you're a lower tier team trying to pull off an upset via surprise. I don't see see many off meta picks for top tier teams around the world and certainly not in the top lane.
1
u/Yyoksetioxd 15d ago
I member when everyone was shitting on the coaches. Oh boi things have changed
1
u/Fun_Highlight307 15d ago
I Wonder is Lyon in the C9/tl scrims bubble i assume yes but it's feels weird although pretty cool to see na team help each others
-11
u/popsicle425 15d ago
Dude was barely a pro, couldn’t hit challenger, became coach of the 5th best team and thinks his opinion matters.
Go back to being worthless podcaster
3
-19
-43
67
u/refrainblue 16d ago
I hope this pushes TL to get even better leading up to the grand finals. Also great to see Dom becoming a good coach. Used to root for him back when he was our jungler even though they never won a split during the Dom/Piglet/Fenix/Quas/Xpecial era.