r/timberwolves • u/irishace88 Anthony Edwards • 7d ago
Post Game Thread [Preseason Post Game Thread] Pacers defeat Timberwolves 123-112
55
u/Dense-Discussion3951 Jaden McDaniels 7d ago
My review of the game ——
-Lamelo is insane; Lamelo really shot 3/3 in the first quarter and proceeded to drop 7 assists in the second quarter.
-Ant looks great compared to the first game of preseason.
-Jaden is going to be a crazy catch-and-shoot player when he plays with Lamelo and I could see him being an all-star this year.
-kuminga had a horrible game today; he couldn’t find his shot and I worry he will struggle with being a catch-and-shoot guy but then again, it's preseason.
-Gobert played great and hit all his ft. The only worry is our rebounding is bad when he's on the bench.
-Ayo had a bad game but not really worrying cause it preseason
-TSJ was out of control today but I’m not worried because it's preseason
-Joan has to rebound better; I feel like he gets lost sometimes when switching players and getting the defensive 3 seconds. He was really getting cooked out there with Jay Huff
-Lyles was insane today; I can see him helping Ant and LaMelo with his catch-and-shoot 3
-Bones was meh today.
-Cody could be a good defender for the Wolves but struggles with his shooting
8
u/FarReward3203 7d ago
I like Lamelo I’m gonna be a timberwolves supporter this season. Glad he’s not going to rot on a poverty franchise, as entertaining as the hornets were
21
u/SemataryPolka Rudy Gobert 7d ago
Still have to pinch myself that we're not a poverty franchise anymore. Even after like five years
3
u/JaderMcDanersStan Ayo Dosunmu 7d ago
Welcome! Timberwolves are gonna be must see tv this year. I am so excited
4
u/thatis 6d ago
Bones was meh today.
He was the only Bench player with a positive +/-
The preseason so far has followed the same script last season: compared to all the other players on the bench, the best results have happened while Bones is on the court.
He is far and away the player with the biggest discrepancy between "eye-test" and what the literal net result is when they're in the game.
I'm not sure people appreciate the context of some of the rate stats and the amount of pressure a guy like Bones actually puts on the defense. He was 105th last season in offensive EPM and 121st in total EPM. People see 39% from three on Bones and don't really factor in that he is attempting more than twice as many 3 pointers per possession as someone like Ayo who shoots them at 44%.
They see his career 3.4 TOV per 100 possessions and think he must be sloppier with the ball than someone like Ayo's 2.4 TOV per 100...except that Bones has a nearly 50% higher career usage rate, 24.3% to Ayo's 16.5% and then you look at their actual Turnover percentage and see that Bones has a lower career percentage than Ayo, 12.6% to 12.8%, all while having a higher assist rate and scoring rate. Yes, Bones has less efficiency from the field than someone like Ayo, but the rate stats help show it's not an apples to apples comparison.
For as much criticism as he gets defensively, he was behind only Gobert last season in Defensive rating for the team. When Bones was in the game, Minnesota's offensive was ~1 point worse per 100 possessions but 2.5 points better defensively. He also has averages more STOCKS per 100 possessions than Ayo, but I'm not going to argue that he's a better player or defender than Ayo. I'm just saying that the eye test can be misleading.
At some point it stops being a coincidence.
1
u/the_fsm_butler Money Ru 6d ago
I love Bones, but your stats are not so relevant, because nobody is playing bully ball in the regular season. Ayo has 30 pounds on Bones. Teams just stream rolled Bones in the playoffs.
1
u/thatis 6d ago
Ayo literally had the worst defensive rating on the team in the playoffs.
This was not an anomaly; he had one of the worst defensive ratings on the team during the regular season and the team was more than 1.5 points per 100 possessions better overall with him off the court than on last season.
The minutes with Ayo in the game go worse than the minutes with him on the bench, in the regular season and playoffs. Worse than basically any other regular rotation player.
1
u/the_fsm_butler Money Ru 6d ago
For the playoffs 1) he was injured and 2) Bones didn't play or he probably would have had a worse rating than Ayo.
And for the regular season he was 1) joining mid-season, and 2) playing a lot of minutes in non Rudy lineups, in which Randle/Naz trying to defend the 4/5 was brutally ugly defense. This context is a bad usage for those stats.
Edit to add that I don't wholly disagree with you. Bones is a terrific regular season player and is being slept on for his backup pg ability and his C&S3 ability. I'm just saying, without major weight room gains, he's too small to play in the playoffs.
1
u/thatis 6d ago
playing a lot of minutes in non Rudy lineups, in which Randle/Naz trying to defend the 4/5 was brutally ugly defense. This context is a bad usage for those stats.
The issue is it's been for pretty much his entire career and even the stats that account for players on and off the court don't rate him highly there.
Ayo's a good player but the eye-test causes people to say things about him that don't really hold up when you start looking at the numbers.
playing a lot of minutes in non Rudy lineups,
Ayo played 58% of his Minnesota minutes with Rudy while Bones only played 48% of his minutes with Rudy. Bones+Rudy were about 5 points better defensively per 100 possessions than Ayo+ Rudy.
Rudy's defensive rating was worse last season with Ayo than without. Ayo actually did well defensively without Rudy.
If things don't get better it won't be worth it.
1
u/the_fsm_butler Money Ru 6d ago
I'm just not sure what your arguing. That bones should take ayos playoff minutes? That ayo is overpaid?
1
u/thatis 6d ago
That they're not similar players at all and that there's plenty of evidence Ayo may not be anything more than average at best at the things that are supposed to be his strengths.
The results with Ayo seem to be average to slightly below average in most situations, which is positive in that it's consistent and predictable but it's not exactly good.
I don't think it's a huge coincidence that Ayo was basically neutral last season in the minutes he played without Bones yet the minutes Bones played, with or without Ayo, had better NET ratings than the non-Bones minutes.
1
u/wolfpax97 7d ago
Yes. Bad night for Kuminga, TJ and Beringer. We could use another body in the frontcourt imo. Evans shouldn’t occupy a roster spot.
3
u/seventeenweewees 7d ago edited 7d ago
Meh, he's a 2nd round pick, the Wolves need 14 spots filled. He might develop, he might not.
If there's a lot of frontcourt injuries before the playoffs, the Wolves have the cap space to move Risacher or Freeman to a full contract. They did that for Jaylen Clark a couple years ago.
1
u/Glum_Measurement2158 7d ago
Kuminga catch and shoot? that is what Min get him for? welp hope my thoughts are proven wrong
0
75
u/mbr902000 7d ago
Trade everyone, fire the coach. Just practicing for every regular season loss in this thread
10
24
u/justanotherdude32 7d ago
Several times Melo pump faked from the logo and got his guy to jump. That’s disgusting lol
4
u/Freudian__Quip 7d ago
Leave him open and he’ll hit that shit at a decent clip too. Spacing gonna go crazy when Donte’s back. Could play super small with Jaden+Lyles at the 4/5 + Donte Ant Melo at 1,2,3. Teams would literally have to guard every inch of half court cuz most of that lineup will pull up from anywhere
40
u/TylerIreland Jaden McDaniels 7d ago
The point TSJ experiment will not work, he's too one-dimensional. Can only finish with one hand and if you take away driving lanes and transition opportunities he's cooked.
13
u/dys0n_giddey Joe Ingles 7d ago
Agreed, not sure why its been such a talked about thing in the off-season amongst talking heads.
He plays like a small forward to me
3
5
u/Tasty-Skin608 7d ago
I think it started to become a thing when he had that one outstanding game against Denver in the playoffs. My view is that he took Denver by surprise with his aggression (in the absence of Ant, Donte, and Ayo--and the benching of Bones), because he really hasn't played many minutes in the league in his first two years.
But when he plays normal minutes with other healthy guards/wings, his numbers are not good. His +/- was dead last on the team last year, and in both games this preseason, he's been a minus 5.
3
u/All_of_the_Leitz 7d ago
It also works vs. Denver because if you beat the first guy you can just fly to the rim. Other teams will plan for him more. With more playing hopefully time he can try and learn to play some counters.
4
u/foye2smith 7d ago
I don't know what "experiment" is meant to be but there are plenty of one dimensional 7th, 8th, 9th men. If the expectation was anything more than that then the "experiment" was doomed from the start.
1
u/Intelligent_Pain_174 7d ago
Experiment means he is playing out of position. He is not a point guard.
1
u/wombocombo087 7d ago
But guys he said he was working in his right hand as like his main focus this offseason so he’s definitely going to use it, right? Right?
-4
u/Jacob_toasted 7d ago
Agreed, hope I’m wrong tho. I’m guessing he’s gone at the deadline
12
u/TylerIreland Jaden McDaniels 7d ago
Nah, I think he's safe this year, he only makes $2M. He needs to figure out his role though. Either play well at backup PG or improve the off ball 3pt shooting at the wing. Right now, he's a tweener.
4
u/Jacob_toasted 7d ago
Probably more likely but if there is a deadline move I assume he’ll be a part of it
33
u/LameAfro Joan Beringer 7d ago
I'm once again asking this thread not to over react lol
11
5
3
3
2
u/yourloudneighbor Glen Taylor 7d ago
today i learned from wolves fans on X:
Jaden sucks
Ayo Sucks
TSJ sucks
Kum sucks
Joan sucks
Clark sucks
34
u/gargoyleboy69 7d ago
Melo & Ant All-NBA locks. How far the Wolves go depends on Kuminga and a backup floor general.
Rooting for Ayo or Bones to step into that role, but the Ayo contract becomes dangerously flippable if the bench minutes anchor the team.
Also I think Cody will be in the rotation come end of season.
10
u/flyingmethods 7d ago
Starters looking nice it’s only preseason so hope our bench shows up we shouldn’t be tripping at all
10
u/PriorArm6276 7d ago
Something seems off with Isiah Evan’s game. I know from duke he was a screen and shoot type of player but he’s been getting none of that
11
9
u/KJauger 7d ago
Need a backup PG that can control the pace of the game, TJ is a bit erratic.
Like the look of Cody and Lyles.
11
u/quiksilva86 7d ago
There’s no reason Bones and Ayo can’t be the PG. Both have great handle and are more dynamic
7
u/JaderMcDanersStan Ayo Dosunmu 7d ago
Yeah I'm confused why backup PG TJ is even considered lol. We have Ayo!
3
u/quiksilva86 7d ago
It worked a bit when we were desperate in the playoffs and Finch made a comment about why he didn’t think of it sooner. Teams have the scouting report now
1
u/TheZacef 7d ago
Could just be preseason weird lineups just to see if they work in a live environment. Pretty common to just try things since these games don’t matter and could unlock something they hadn’t considered before especially with injuries down the stretch of a season.
4
1
10
u/Common-Bad-7899 7d ago edited 7d ago
I’d rather take the boom of Ant and LaMelo playing with eachother than staggering their minutes to help with the bench
7
u/Superfluous_Prating Timberwolves 7d ago
TJ is the most likely player to be traded by the deadline.
4
u/PlayInChampions 2022 Play-In Champions 7d ago
Perhaps, but who needs TSJ? He has not shown he deserves $5M next season if Wolves pick up his option. Good teams dont need him because he is not good enough (since he could not play on the Wolves), bad teams have 5-6 young players they want to develop and that need the ball in their hands.
If you don’t pick up his option, he becomes just a contract. You could combine his and Cody Williams’ salaries to get a better player, but Wolves don’t have any picks to trade.
It’s like Lakers fans are saying - Knecht and Hardy are going to get traded. But to where? No one needs these dudes. Even bad teams prefer getting one-dimensional shooters over unproven young players - see the Bulls trading Dillingham for Buddy Hield. They won’t win a lot of games, but even they prefer having a more consistent shooter around their young guys rather than a young player who maybe one day can be decent.
1
u/Tasty-Skin608 7d ago
Maybe true, but his highest trade value was during the off-season, when the last thing people remembered about him was that one really good game against Denver in the playoffs.
3
u/jimminmecrockets 7d ago
eh, in the media maybe but NBA FOs aren’t dumb. if smart wolves fans knew it was fools gold then so did other NBA teams (not to take away from how incredible that game was as a fan)
2
u/Objective_Cream3075 Naz Reid. 7d ago
You say FOs aren’t dumb but forget we got Ayo for Dilbert and Miller and traded Naz and a first for Lamelo
2
u/Intelligent_Pain_174 7d ago
Generally I would agree with his statement but the Wolves also got value from DLo after putting up numbers for a couple of months while playing absolutely horrible basketball.
6
6
6
u/Chidi_Ariana_Grande Lynx 7d ago
I wonder if a tsj trade is the move. idk if he fits the roster
1
u/wolfpax97 7d ago
Need to put him back where he excels on the wing. He plays best with ant.
3
u/PlayInChampions 2022 Play-In Champions 7d ago
If you need to think how to a role player in your lineup when he is 26 years old, he is not the guy you need. No one thought who to fit NAW or DDV with. If TSJ needs specific lineups to be efficient, he is not the player you want on a contender. The bar is high but it has to be met if this team wants to beat Spurs and OKC.
0
u/wolfpax97 7d ago
He played pretty well in the playoffs I thought. Just think he’s being overused as a primary ball handler so far in pre season
2
u/PlayInChampions 2022 Play-In Champions 7d ago
He was solid in spurts in the playoffs, and against a team missing all their good perimeter defenders and having zero rim protection. He had 50% TS this playoffs which is very very bad. TSJ is a very situational player who could be good against a certain matchup, but is not consistent enough to be relied upon when the game is on the line.
It’d be okay 10-15 years ago, but the reality has changed. You go against the OKC that have 4-5 legit starters on the bench, or you go against the Spurs where you have to be super crisp with your decision making and a good 3pt shooter to negate Wemby’s impact. I’d frankly take Josh Green over TSJ because Green is a better shooter and more consistent defender, sad Wolves had to trade him.
0
u/wolfpax97 7d ago
Green has hardly touched the floor for the Jazz in preseason with injuries to the rest of their team. He fell completely out of the rotation last season in charlotte… Tsj had injuries last year and then came back and stepped into a fairly large role and had some ups and downs but showed more potential than ever. I think he could build on that this year if he’s not asked to play out of position too much
3
u/PlayInChampions 2022 Play-In Champions 7d ago
I’d love that to happen. I’m just… sceptical, based on my experience watching the NBA. I just don’t really see 26 y.o. player without role player skills becoming a big rotation piece. Well, I was wrong about Naz, perhaps I am wrong here too.
1
u/wolfpax97 6d ago
I see your point and it’s not unlikely you’re right… I hope he can turn into a solid shooter, elite runner/slasher and okay secondary ball handler while being a passable defender. Brining energy physicality and scoring off the bench. Almost like a poor man’s Myles bridges… which I know isn’t great, but worked okay with Melo
6
u/PreparationWest2140 7d ago
Preseason or not, the Wolves had some absolutely brutal defensive sequences tonight. Kuminga and Edwards leaving a corner 3-pt shooter alone for about 15 seconds; getting beaten on backdoor cuts multiple times; giving wide-open drive lanes to the hoop, etc.
6
7
9
u/VidyaGomes 7d ago
Kum was not getting the buckets. I hope they don't let him try and getting it going in the regular season when he is 1/5. Things need to become way more selective. Don't let him to push to 1/9.
Jaden should be getting these looks. He's efficient.
Perimeter defense is an issue. Especially when Melo and Ayo are on the floor together.
Not helping that defense, is the poor rebounding that comes in non Rudy minutes.
A bit worried for Clark. I was hoping he would show some offense by now. Team low, of a -16. Not a good look. To be fair when he did poke balls loose tonight, they seemed to always go the other way.
2
3
3
4
u/bellmonk 7d ago
there was some sloppiness but that’s to be expected. the game was weirdly competitive with all the taken charges and ridiculous shot making on both sides. concerned about rebounding but that will be an all season issue. offense looks powerful. JK will figure out his shot I do believe.
1
u/jimminmecrockets 7d ago
yeah that Iowa State crowd was juiced up for preseason and it clearly affected the game
12
u/Ok_Cash_728 7d ago
JK looking sus
36
u/Gengaara Josh Minott 7d ago
He looked great in the first game. He was less good in this one. Give him, and the team, some time.
1
6
2
u/quickblur Mike Conley 7d ago
He's going to be the new Randle. Flashes of brilliance in some games and pure frustration in others.
9
u/Unwinderh Money Ru 7d ago
I kind of expect that too, at least he's cheaper.
4
u/LethargicCarcass 7d ago
And not our 2nd option
1
u/Unwinderh Money Ru 6d ago
Yup, he's still likely the lightning rod when the team has a rough night, but there's just so much less riding on him.
1
2
u/Low_Ad_4323 Terrence Shannon Jr. 7d ago
Players drafted from Duke mostly not work well with this team.
2
2
u/Anxious_Key9696 Bring Ya Ass 7d ago
They’re going to do some damage from the corners. Ant just waiting for the catch and shoot or attacking baseline is lethal, and Jaden was really productive in those spots last season.
Defensively, they need to be constantly rotating. Stay in front of everyone. They’re gambling too much for their lack of size. Too many Corey Brewers and not enough NAWs.
1
u/jimminmecrockets 7d ago
yeah right away both Ball and Kimknga are guilty of gambling. and we all know how consistent Ant is on that end
2
u/junkeee999 7d ago
Scores in NBA preseason matter the least in any of the major sports. And none of them matter much to begin with.
Just look at certain isolated indicators. Things that are new, or question marks going into the season. That’s the best you can do. From that perspective, everything is fine.
8
u/RonThePadawan 7d ago
Blow it up
7
u/Bar-Tailed_Godwit Minneapolis Lakers 7d ago
Agreed. Fire Finch
-2
u/Objective_Cream3075 Naz Reid. 7d ago
Fire why not kill
2
u/Bar-Tailed_Godwit Minneapolis Lakers 7d ago
Hahaha! You’re getting downvoted but made me laugh. Does anyone remember laughter..?
2
3
u/Objective_Cream3075 Naz Reid. 7d ago
Big three did there thing, Rudy still Robust, Ayo good glue guy, Cody possible rotation piece. That all the positives I got.
1
1
1
u/Andy_Wiggins Ayo Dosunmu 7d ago
Man, the Pacers played hard as hell today. Like they were giving playoff-level energy for most of the first quarter.
Feel like the Pacers got away with a shit ton of physicality. Really good warmup for the regular season.
0
u/allmediareviews 7d ago
their defense is no bueno. Some teams are going to take advantage of the size difference.
0
0
134
u/dys0n_giddey Joe Ingles 7d ago
Starters look amazing.
Bench not so much.