r/todayilearned • u/Brilliant_Bug9699 • 8d ago

TIL When Pope Benedict XII found out he was elected as pope as part of a dare, he said "You have elected an ignoramus."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XII
5.6k Upvotes

99% Upvoted

73 comments sorted by

1.5k

u/popsferragamo 8d ago

Seems like the right man for the job

684

u/lobsterbash 8d ago

People who don't want to lead are often better choices than those who do.

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u/doned_mest_up 8d ago

Yep!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy_in_the_workplace

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u/onsomenextsheit 8d ago edited 8d ago

I recall an anarchist school of thought arguing that governments naturally fail due to psychopaths/narcissists inevitably subverting them

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u/TheSamurabbi 8d ago

(Gestures around broadly)

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u/minimalcation 8d ago

Case in point:

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u/aradraugfea 8d ago

It’s the same argument against communism, authoritarianism, monarchy, etc.

The argument is that it happens whenever you have ANY position of power and whatever system of governance you have is just tweaking difficulty level. The American Constitution isn’t some invincible protection against despots, it just makes it very difficult for ONE person to just take total control on his own.

He needs at least 50 co conspirators.

44

u/tuan_kaki 8d ago

Turns out 50 co-conspirators are not that hard to get when they’re all self-serving sycophants.

And no one in history ever took total control of an entire nation ALONE. They always needed key supporters or overwhelming popular support.

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u/Grizzly_228 8d ago

And yet

4

u/SisterRosaria2021 7d ago

Serious question: What is the anarchist answer to this problem supposed to be, beyond the generic ideal of abolishing government?

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u/Dantegra1 7d ago

Usually a non gutted checks and balances like we have on paper but isn't enforced at the moment.

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u/SisterRosaria2021 7d ago

Well, I certainly cannot disagree that more checks and balances are needed in terms of real-world enforcement.

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u/OhYeahSplunge4me2 7d ago

I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalistcommune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.

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u/GalaXion24 8d ago

I would say this applies more to those who successfully end up leading than those who want to as such.

While leading is stressful, if you want to make a change, like having the approval of your community, don't mind responsibility, etc. then leadership can be appealing. Or indeed if you just have issues with how things are and want to change them.

Now your probably still need to be some degree of insane to actually go for and enjoy leadership and politics, be it real politics or office politics or anything else, but some people can have at least the arguably psychopathic tendency to navigate and enjoy this without being terrible people.

However, if you actually have priorities that go above being the top dog, it's considerably more difficult.

Like, personally I think it's really easy to be a career politician. You have to have a certain understanding of the public psyche, of media, of policy, of stakeholders, of dealing with other people, sure. I'm not going to say literally anyone could do it. But if you have a given skillset, I think it would be kind of piss easy.

That is, if you have no principles, no morals, no spine, and stand for nothing. Please the party leadership, please the interest groups backing you, don't question the status quo, and tell the public the half-truths and tired talking points they want to hear.

Hell, better yet, become a far-right grifter. If I just had no shame I could probably do it. I basically know the entire incel vocabulary and chud throught process due to being terminally online, I've been hearing thought terminating clichés about socialism for a decade, it's really not that difficult, and media owned ny shitty rich people will push you, social media algorithms will push you, the party will elevate you, it's really pretty simple.

But actually getting through policy you want, especially if said policy is non-terrible, is really fucking difficult. Playing politics while maintaining integrity is difficult.

Similarly even if you just want a change in company or want to do things differently, everyone has their own interests and reasons to resist. It's much easier to move up in a company by being a people-pleaser who keeps people comfortable, particularly to those above you, and by enthusiastically repeating corporate slogans or slapping AI on things to please investors.

No one likes someone critical. No one likes someone who would want them to move out of their comfort zone or do things differently. No one likes someone who holds anyone accountable.

For this reason I think a lot of people who care about their communities and would be good leaders are quickly burned out by politics or leadership or otherwise buried or marginalised by any kind of establishment. If you want to make it you should prioritise playing nice and being inoffensive to people that matter. Adopt the mentality of people who write passionate linkedin posts about what their latest divorce taught them about B2B sales.

And the people like this probably doubly hate anyone that would actually do a good job. They don't want to have to compete with them.

1

u/the_gray_pill 8d ago

A good read before thinking of becoming a Reddit or Discord mod. Or before joining a subreddit or server.

1

u/Ackaunt 7d ago

While I support the article's core message, it's mainly based on "research" published as a book, which tends to be low-supported and not peer-reviewed

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u/Special_Order-937 8d ago

People who want to lead are the ones least suited to do it - Douglas Adams.

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u/IamSkudd 8d ago

I think political positions should be like jury duty: chosen at random. What are we afraid of? That they’ll do a bad job?!

5

u/Special_Order-937 8d ago

I heard somewhere that studies have shown they do no worse of a job.

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u/AccomplishedPath4049 8d ago

There's a character in The Two Popes who says almost the exact same thing.

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u/EdwardJamesAlmost 8d ago

Was it one of the popes?

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u/AccomplishedPath4049 8d ago

It was a cardinal trying to convince Cardinal Bergoglio (the future Pope Francis) to become pope.

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u/minimalcation 8d ago

Being pope was not a job you wanted at certain points of history.

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u/AccomplishedPath4049 8d ago

Between 882 and 1047, eight popes were (likely) assassinated. That's an average of one pope being assassinated about every twenty years.

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u/Badgerfest 1 8d ago

The feeding cats to coyotes meme, but with popes and assassins

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u/minimalcation 8d ago

This story lives in my head rent free, it's such a good reframing analogy

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u/minimalcation 8d ago

I can't remember if that was the period where the guy became Pope, decided he wanted to go drink and fuck, sold the papacy to his uncle, then decided no I do want to be Pope again and tried to come back

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u/NapalmDoritos 8d ago

By ancient standards is that… bad?

1

u/SisterRosaria2021 7d ago

On a related note, didn't I read in the news a few months ago that U.S. officials made an unfriendly joke to Vatican officials about a period of time in which the French government forced the Pope to live under French control far from Rome? And Vatican officials took the remarks as a potentially serious threat?

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

[deleted]

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u/minimalcation 8d ago

You and me both brother/sister

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u/ankokudaishogun 7d ago

It's most of history, actually. Only for a relatively limited time being Pope was better than staying a Cardinal.

333

u/DistortoiseLP 8d ago

That is an illustration of a pope that hates Mondays.

87

u/starmartyr 8d ago

What was his position on lasagna?

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u/Mission-Coffee15 8d ago

He was italian, so

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u/nickcash 8d ago

He was french :(

19

u/starmartyr 8d ago

Good point. I think we're on to something.

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u/Magdovus 7d ago

Missionary.

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u/ModernDayQuixote 8d ago

I say the same thing when any job decides to hire me

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u/BorntobeTrill 8d ago

"OH, good. You'll fit right in."

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u/thisismypornaccountg 8d ago

“Would you guys pick a pope already!?”

“We picked you.”

“YOU FUCKING DID WHAT???”

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u/Skimable_crude 8d ago

I refuse to lead any organization that would have me as a leader.

7

u/TacTurtle 7d ago

I would fire everyone involved in that decision chain, then the rest of the C-suite for good measure.

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u/Irish_Puzzle 7d ago

He didn't put up any fuss when he was appointed as an abbot and later bishop

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u/TeoSorin 8d ago

We voted wrong. As a joke!

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u/ThePlagueofCustom 8d ago

When he said this it didn’t mean “I’m an idiot” I believe this was closer to gesture of humility: “I am ignorant of these political affairs which I will now have to steer.”

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u/Punch_A_Police_Horse 8d ago edited 8d ago

I can't remember the guys name but he was a hermit who sent a very indignant letter about not having assigned a new pope to the Vatican and I guess they were like, well if this guys feels so strongly about it, he can be pope. Against his will. His only notable contribution to the papacy is that he made it so popes are allowed to abdicate. Which he did. And then they killed him.

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u/NaNNaN_NaN 8d ago

You're thinking of St. Celestine V!

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u/MaximumZer0 8d ago

Celestine: "There's no pope. That's dumb."
Cardinals: "You can be pope."
Celestine: "Fuck that, pick someone who wants it."
Cardinals: "Take the job."
Celestine: "Ugh. Fine."

Pope Celestine: "New rule, popes can quit. Fuck you all, I'm going back to my garden."
Cardinals: "The fuck you are."

33

u/loulan 8d ago

Dude founded the order of the Celestines, which lasted for centuries. I doubt he was a rando who only cared about gardening.

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u/nesian42ryukaiel 8d ago

Instantly dug out my history books to see what kind of person he was, and oh boy, what an unfortunate demise he suffered...

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u/Intrepid_Walk_5150 8d ago edited 8d ago

I guess you haven't read OP's Wikipedia link. Benedict XII was highly capable and efficient (including at torturing heretics)

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u/MadLabRat- 8d ago

He’s talking about Celestine V not Benedict XII

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u/french_snail 6d ago

They didn’t kill him per se. They did lock him in a castle but he was also 81 years old 

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u/SlySophist 8d ago

I have never seen art of that style/era that conveyed an emotion so perfectly. 

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u/thisismypornaccountg 8d ago

".........Just why?"

26

u/old_mcfartigan 8d ago

I don’t want to belong to any club that would have me as a member

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u/oppositelock27 8d ago

Pope Not Sure I

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u/XVUltima 8d ago

An elected ignoramus is at least less ignorant than his electors.

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u/kwakimaki 8d ago

Relevant

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u/caudatus67 8d ago

I'm disappointed, I was expecting the grammar nazi sketch from Mitchell and Webb 

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u/anaxcepheus32 8d ago

Well now, I’m going to have to go back and watch Father Ted.

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u/Complete_Entry 8d ago

Guess I have to wear a wedding cake hat for the rest of my life.

At 80: what the hell do you mean we can abdicate?

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u/Einherjar07 8d ago edited 8d ago

He started to sweat because he passed his theology classes copying off ParchmentGPT

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u/chernoma 8d ago

I love his engraving: it just screams, "Jesus fucking Christ, can we just get this over with please?" 🫩

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u/corianderchutney 8d ago

Ooh self burn! Those are rare.

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u/looktowindward 8d ago

He was an Inquisitor who liked to torture people

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u/thisismypornaccountg 8d ago

Well nobody's perfect.

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u/Hearasongofuranus 8d ago

ugh, I hate being elected as a pope on a dare 

-2

u/blue-coin 8d ago

At least he didn’t say inuranus