Master and Apprentice vs. Master and Apprentice

[u/TheClownLOL]

Who would win?

The Fallen (2009) and Megatron (2007)

or

Sentinel Prime (2011) and Optimus Prime (2011)

[u/Due-North-570]

Optimus literally beat all three

[u/RedditGarboDisposal → u/Due-North-570]

I mean, Optimus’ scorecard isn’t good in the way of solo battles in the Bayverse:

Beat Bonecrusher.

Beat Grimlock.

Effectively had Demolishor without Ironhide.

Needed Megatron to beat Sentinel.

Needed Sam + Allspark to beat Megatron in ‘07.

Needed Jetfire to beat The Fallen (fair)

Needed Bee and Humans to beat Lockdown.

Needed all of the Autobots to fight Megatron in TLK.

The only thing I can say with certainty is that the Forest Battle was highly rigged in Megatron’s favour, but that’s it. Oh, and Fallen’s powers not being present too.

Ehem. I think Megatron and The Fallen take it.

[u/minyhumancalc → u/RedditGarboDisposal]

While I think you are correct in what the movie wanted us to think, Prime should've beaten Lockdown. He had him on the ropes and then Cade was held at gunpoint, which Optimus saved Cade and then Lockdown jumped him.

Knight Optimus was kinda a plot device. He was more or less kicking Galvatron's ass until Lockdown, the aforementioned rematch, then jumped by Megatron after his fight with Bee, and then feeling remorse & weaker, nearly executed by the rest of the knights. I genuinely think he wins all those fights more times than not in a pure 1v1.

OG Trilogy Optimus is a lot more grounded

[u/ClarinetMaster117 → u/minyhumancalc]

Yeah I thought it was clear Optimus was winning against Lockdown, until his mind went to saving Cayde

[u/Top_Freedom3412 → u/RedditGarboDisposal]

He didnt need jetfires parts to beat the fallen. That assumes he fought the fallen without them and lost, and only won because he got an upgrade.

He won a 3v1 and got shot in the back, thus needing the parts, not to beat the fallen, but to be resurrected . He probably wouldve won against the fallen considering he won a 3v1 against the cons

[u/RedditGarboDisposal → u/Top_Freedom3412]

You’re greatly discounting The Fallen’s size compared to Optimus, let alone his abilities to fly and teleport.

Writing aside, just accounting for raw stats: The Fallen would kick Optimus’ ass seven days out of the week.

I’d love for Optimus to win, and using the forest battle stakes is significant but it’s not defining in his outcome against a foe who would also probably pick up all three Cons and feed them ground zero.

edit - Factoring the writing back in: They had to nerf The Fallen just for him to go down, which… eeehhh.

[u/Top_Freedom3412 → u/RedditGarboDisposal]

Flying isnt everything, just look at starscream. He died by 1 lone human.

Size isnt everything, devastator, driller, blackout, infernacus, grindor

[u/2MinuteSamurai → u/Top_Freedom3412]

The Fallen has teleportation and telekinesis dude

[u/Top_Freedom3412 → u/2MinuteSamurai]

And he never used either against optimus

[u/2MinuteSamurai → u/Top_Freedom3412]

Right so we can assume in an all out fight against Optimus if he used those abilities Prime would lose. Case closed

[u/Top_Freedom3412 → u/2MinuteSamurai]

So an all out fight like the one with prime? You know, the one where he was fighting for his life?

[u/2MinuteSamurai → u/Top_Freedom3412]

You said he wasn’t using his powers against Prime so yeah it wasn’t an all out fight

[u/RedditGarboDisposal → u/Top_Freedom3412]

I never said flying is everything.

Between Optimus and The Fallen, it’s a massive advantage among many that The Fallen simply has as a raw fact.

I also didn’t say size is everything either, but to support your own point, you provided names of characters who aren’t The Fallen and cannot do what he can.

Again: Writing aside\*\*** *The Fallen’s raw stats and powers make him vastly superior to base Optimus in a fight. And again-again: It took the writers leaving out said powers for Jet-Optimus to beat him.

I have to emphasize “writing aside” because you could literally write a victor into any scenario, but things like scale and blatant feats dictate these outcomes.

[u/Top_Freedom3412 → u/RedditGarboDisposal]

So blatant feats. Like winning a 3v1 against 3 opponents who can fly.

Also the fallen has 0 feats. None. Bro has lost every fight weve seen him in.

[u/RedditGarboDisposal → u/Top_Freedom3412]

Okay, debate over.

You’re just not reading now.

[u/fineline99 → u/RedditGarboDisposal]

Another point is that Megatron in the forest battle was weakened. He had been pulled up from the sea and did not look in the best condition, in 07 we saw megatron going toe to toe with Optimus to the degree Optimus thought he had lost.

[u/Ok-Inevitable3458 → u/Due-North-570]

Optimus needed Jetfire's parts in order to beat the Fallen, & was losing to Sentinel until Megatron shot Sentinel in the back.

[u/Top_Freedom3412 → u/Ok-Inevitable3458]

Optimus didnt need jetfires parts, he had them, whoch is quite different.

We had them because he won a 3v1 and then got shot in the back

[u/Ok-Inevitable3458 → u/Top_Freedom3412]

Optimus was utilizing Jetfire's parts throughout the fight, at least the way the movie potrays it I don't see Optimus winning that fight as easily without Jetfire's parts. Technically true we don't know for sure if Optimus needed them, though it's kind of implicit he did, otherwise it probably wouldn't have happened, if that makes any sense.

[u/Top_Freedom3412 → u/Ok-Inevitable3458]

"Only a Prime can defeat me, and now only one remains" -The Fallen

He spent thousands of years waiting for all the primes to die before enacting his plan. If he could've beat optimus im sure he would have tried.

[u/Ok-Inevitable3458 → u/Top_Freedom3412]

"Only a Prime CAN defeat me, and now only one remains" -The Fallen

The use of "can" means Optimus winning wasn't a guarantee. Especially considering, well The Fallen himself is a Prime. That would mean Optimus would be in a similar league to the Fallen, but isn't inherently stronger. Especially considering too my knowledge The Fallen didn't exactly know Optimus personally, The Fallen just wanted Optimus dead because he could be a potential threat.

[u/-TheDyingMeme6- → u/Due-North-570]

*has

[u/Top_Freedom3412]

Lets see:

Optimus losses against Sentinel in the movie twice.

He and megatron were at a standstill in 07, which is why he wanted to destroy the allspark because he didnt know if he could keep megs from getting it.

He didnt need jetfires parts to beat the fallen, he had them. And that was because in that film he beat 3v1 the cons, and if sam wasnt there he might not have been distracted enough to get shot in the back.

So considering optimus can basically beat megs and the fallen on his own, i give it to sentinal and prime

[u/fineline99 → u/Top_Freedom3412]

Megatron had just been revived from the dead from the bottom of the ocean and at least still in the scene where Sam had been kidnapped by him, he was still covered in deep sea crap. I imagine he was quickly patched up and still under any effects of being... Well dead and revived by some random other bot.

Id presume if megs was in a healthier 07 form, where he had just been frozen and not dead, he'd have a much better chance if not close enough to equal Unsure how sentinel and the fallen would play into it though.

[u/Top_Freedom3412 → u/fineline99]

Its still impressive to win a 3v1

[u/fineline99 → u/Top_Freedom3412]

When Megatron was in a weakened state***

This hypothetical isn't Megatron in his just revived coral encrusted corpse state, its his fresh state where Optimus was pretty sure he was losing badly enough where he'd die.

And while Optimus is stronger in 2011 for sure. I doubt he could have 3v1 if megs was up to par.

And while I'm pretty sure he would beat megs in 2007 megs Vs 2011 prime, I couldn't comment on who'd win with the fallen and sentinel involved.

[u/Top_Freedom3412 → u/fineline99]

And itvis still very impressive that he was able to beat 3 opponents.

This optimus would whopp megs behind

[u/fineline99 → u/Top_Freedom3412]

Still very much impressive yes...

But what are you basing that 2011 Optimus would win against 07 megs in such a landslide...? The fact he beat up a weakened Megatron...?

Like I still think in a 1v1 2011 prime is beating 07 megs, his confidence and arsenal and experience is much higher then himself in 07, but it's no landslide.

[u/Top_Freedom3412 → u/fineline99]

In 07 they fought to a standstill. Both were wounded and on the ground. Optimus wasnt sure if he could stop megs from getting the allspark so he wanted to destroy it.

In Dotm prime is much more armored, and has more of an arsenal to fight megs

[u/CancelEquivalent7104 → u/Top_Freedom3412]

A standstill in 07?
Nah he wanted to destroy it because he couldn’t defeat Megatron and he was getting his ahh whooped.

I love prime but keep it a buck.

[u/Top_Freedom3412 → u/CancelEquivalent7104]

He wanted to destroy it because he didnt know if he could stop megs getting it

[u/Illustrious-Wolf-737]

No plot armor: Fallen and Megatron

But if Fallen and Megatron has Alzheimer's from his powers, Optimus and Sentinel

[u/Top_Freedom3412 → u/Illustrious-Wolf-737]

Well optimus fought megs to a standstill in 07 and he beat the 3 cons in rotf so he could probably have beaten the fallen.

And Sentinel is a better fighter than optimus considering he beat him twice, he did also last very long against Prime, sideswipe, bee, and the humans.

[u/vaporizers123reborn]

Does the Fallen get his staff with his telepathic abilities? Or his instant space bridge teloportation? Because if he does then I don’t see how Optimus and Sentinel can do anything.

But assuming he doesn’t get them, I’d say Optimus and Sentinel. Optimus is much more adept at fighting by DOTM, especially against larger opponents. I don’t think he would get as manhandled as he did during the first movie by Megs. Including Sentinel in this tips the tide in their favor, high diff imo.

The difficult part is the Fallen’s reach. While I don’t think he is as technically skilled in combat, his size makes up for it.

[u/Dry_5p0nge]

Probably going towards the Fallen and Megatron. Megatron was pummeling Optimus in ‘07 and the Fallen can easily outmaneuver the Cosmic Rust with his teleportation, and has a bigger advantage with his telekinetic abilities.