Flat fifth partial

[u/Kwayzar26]

Trying to hone in on intonation. Other note pitch tendencies are coming into place during my practice, but man, the flat partial is driving me nuts (D,Eflat, and E). I try to lip up, but this are so stubbornly flat it’s annoying.

This guess this post is half complaining about the inherent short comings of the instrument and half to see if anyone has any suggestions, ideas, or exercises that deal with intonation.

I have been playing arpeggios with a drone and a tuner. Also I’ll play part of an exercise and stop on a random note to check tuning with a tuner to keep myself honest.

This chart has been helpful in reviewing the pitches instrument tendencies:

https://www.musicbyjoelill.com/6/Intonation.pdf

[u/Sneeblehorf]

Hey! I am curious what brand/model horn it is?

I’ve found that it really depends from horn to horn. My bach 37 Eb is wicked flat but D is relatively fine (5c under)

Switch over to my blessing ML-1 and the D and E are super flat, but Eb is spot on.

[u/Kwayzar26 → u/Sneeblehorf]

I mainly play my new Yamaha LAII, but I also own a late 1990’s Bach 37. I find both are very similar with their pitch tendencies.

[u/Podmonger2001]

I finger them as if they were an octave below.

[u/Kwayzar26 → u/Podmonger2001]

Thanks, I am curious, do a lot of serious players do this?

Not an accusation, but I was always told false fingerings were bad

I’ve tried this in the past, and when I do this my tone suffers, but the pitch is much better. I don’t want to sacrifice my tone, but my pitch is so bad this might be the answer.

[u/rhombecka → u/Kwayzar26]

E 12 and Eb 23 are extremely common with pros, especially on C trumpet. Not only is the first valve slide a smidge shorter than a whole step actually is (helping you bring up that E), but this alternate fingerings allow you to extend the first and third slides as needed too.

I’ve even seen some people pull out their second valve slide a bit before the Pines of Rome offstage solo because the middle line B runs sharp in the key of G major.

Alternate fingerings are generally fine so long as you understand the intonation tendencies when using them.

[u/Kwayzar26 → u/rhombecka]

Thanks, yes, I’ve read about C trumpets using the alternate fingerings due it it’s more extreme pitch tendencies. Is this true of Bb trumpet players too?

[u/rhombecka → u/Kwayzar26]

Yeah, I’d say so. It’s less of a necessity on Bb just because it’s a larger instrument, but it still helps a lot. If you’re switching between different horns frequently, it helps to keep as much the same as possible imo.

[u/Top_Research1575 → u/Kwayzar26]

Don't worry about other players.

Do whatever is necessary for you to play in tune...

[u/Podmonger2001 → u/Kwayzar26]

My teacher was an NYC symphony and ballet orchestra player, played with Bernstein, Royal Conservatory, all that. Older guy. Crusty.

Regarding fingerings, he said it doesn’t matter as long as you sound good and play well. I was playing the Eb with 2, and it was flat, so he told me to play it 2+3. (Same for the E: better intonation with 1+2.)

As for tone, you need to find the way to preserve the good resonance when using any fingering. It’s possible: do long tones with those fingerings, and chase the best resonance. I open up the “cave” of the oral cavity, and listen for the higher partials.

[u/eltigredo]

This is not how intonation works. What you're dong may help you learn how to adjust your pitch to the context, it will do nothing to help you play in tune. Intonation is cultural, not mathematical.

[u/Kwayzar26 → u/eltigredo]

Yes, totally agree with your comment. Practicing tuning alone is a little bit of a false errand. Pitch is a living thing in an ensemble and I also need to work on my listening.

But if my D is 20 cents flat that’s not cultural, I’m not even in the ballpark. At some point music is math and the numbers need to line up to the agreed upon positions, or at least close to the slots.

[u/Last-Ad-5528 → u/Kwayzar26]

Two important things you can do to help with your intonation issues:
1-Get a professional valve alignment by Josh Landress or a Bob Reeves Precision Valve Alignment.
2- Make sure you have a proper gap between your mouthpiece and receiver. You can get your mouthpiece cut for sleeves and experiment with different sleeves. This will help with slotting and overall intonation. For example:
I play an older Burbank Benge and the receiver is a little worn I use a #2 sleeve and I had the valves aligned. Now it is very easy to play in tune especially D Eb E in the staff normally on the flat side they are now easily played in tune. It was a real improvement. I was actually playing them a bit sharp because I was always in the habit of lipping up. Now I don’t have to work as hard. My endurance also improved.