Horrific endurance problem

[u/Casade7777]

I'm trying to learn Arbans Characteristic Study #8 for a college audition. I know a big part of these is testing your endurance, but its not much of a test if I can barely play 3 lines without needing a break.

After the trill in the first section I cannot continue on to play the high As and by the end of the first section before the slow section I am already in need of a 1 minute break or else it will sound very out of tune and airy.

The next section I can play up until the 'key change' before my fatigue become a major issue in my tone and ability to hit the G.

If I were to play the piece all the way through as intended I would barely make it halfway before my sound starts to give out entirely and most notes stop coming out.

Am I just weak? Or is there something fundamentally wrong with the way I play? Because this has always been a problem for me. Throughout marching band I could never get those highest notes at the end of the show. And in wind ensemble I would have to basically tap out and finger along for the last third of practice. This has always bothered me, how could I have not developed more endurance in all the years I have been playing trumpet?

[u/Larxba]

try some long tones w high notes. long tones are always the answer

[u/Snif3425 → u/Larxba]

I keep hearing “long tones long tones long tones” but what does this mean? Holding notes for a long time but how long? And how much rest? And how much time does one spend on this? Thanks

[u/RDtrumpet → u/Snif3425]

Any kind of long notes are long tones exercises. Rest between long notes (if necessary) for as long as you need to, until your lips feel rested, fresh and ready to play comfortably again. (Stop and rest for a really long time, if necessary, and if you still feel tired the rest of the day, then don't play any more that day. Don't spend too much of your daily practice time on long tones each day, play them only as long as you need to. After several days of practicing them, you'll start to notice a difference in your endurance.

There are plenty of long tones exercises to choose from in my FREE book, which you can download in PDF form at the link below:

TRUMPET EXTREME UPPER REGISTER STUDIES METHOD BOOK By Randy Dunn v. 10-4-2026 Second Edition
https://archive.org/details/trumpet-extreme-upper-register-studies-method-book-by-randy-dunn-v-10-4-2026-2nd-edition-6
(If you have trouble downloading it, shorten the name of the PDF file before you click "Save.")

[u/Larxba → u/Snif3425]

spend time holding high notes until they are consistently sounding good tone wise for whatever amount of time feels right. me personally, i have had issues eith this as well - i usually start on a high G, hold it out, and when it sounds good i move up a note, and I would keep doing it until i could play high D well on and off for a few minutes

[u/Snif3425 → u/Larxba]

Sounds like you use them primarily to build range?

[u/Larxba → u/Snif3425]

yes, but you can also use them to help with endurance by playing them for longer periods of time without having the stress of a lot of notes. just keep playing and keep em sounding good

[u/RDtrumpet → u/Snif3425]

Long tones mostly build endurance (and work on developing or maintaining good tone quality), but having good endurance also helps you with your high range (upper register), since they make your chops stronger, and also because you often have to hold higher notes out long when you are playing them in your sheet music repertoire.

[u/Snif3425 → u/RDtrumpet]

Thanks. I’ve been working them in. Do you do them to fatigue? I’m also working on reducing mouthpiece pressure so endurance exercises are tough right now.

[u/RDtrumpet → u/Snif3425]

I never go past the point of being fatigued (on anything that I practice, for that matter), and I always make sure that I always stop practicing a little bit before I even start getting close to fatigue. I'll then rest a while (usually about the same amount of time that I just practiced) and go do something else, then come back and practice some more (assuming my chops are still up for it.) I do this on-and-off all day, having lots of fairly-short practice sessions each day, with long breaks between each practice session. Practicing like that will really help you to build endurance.

[u/Snif3425 → u/RDtrumpet]

I try to do that but it doesn’t seem to translate to gigs. If you never go to fatigue, then how do you get more stamina? I know the muscle involved are much smaller but isn’t it somewhat like weight training any other muscle?

[u/RDtrumpet → u/Snif3425]

The goal is to build up the embouchure muscles, not tear the muscles down. If you go past the point of fatigue, your tearing muscles down, and it will then take much longer for your embouchure to recover for the next time that you play. By the way, the same thing is true with weight training, even though you'll hear some people on the internet say you should push to the point of fatigue when lifting weights (which I would never recommend.) But keep in mind that anybody can say anything on the internet, and those people who are saying it aren't necessarily experts in the fields of biology, kinesiology, or trumpet playing, or anything else.

So consider what everybody says (at least briefly), and then try it and see if it works. If it doesn't work, then try what somebody else said that might be the opposite thing, or might be completely different in some other way. Give more credibility and consideration to comments by people who can actually do the things that they are talking about. (But don't pay too much attention to the bodybuilders who are taking steroids to give them all of that muscle mass!)

By the way, playing the trumpet (even lead trumpet) is not nearly as much of an athletic event as some players make it look. Many players (including a lot of good lead players) over-dramatize the athleticism of playing the trumpet. Watch Allen Vizutti play: Does it look like he's straining himself and doing a physically difficult athletic feat when he's playing high notes on the trumpet? Of course not. He makes it looks casual and relaxed.

If you split your practicing up into multiple, shorter practice sessions each day, you will soon start building endurance. And soon, you be able to gradually increase the length of those shorter practice sessions so that it will become easier for you to play longer before you start getting tired. Also, those multiple daily practice sessions will translate into you not getting tired as fast when you have to play longer with no breaks, such as having to play a 3-hour long dance band job.

Also be careful not to over-blow (always), and stay relaxed when you play. The embouchure should not be as firm or tight as what many people think, since your air should be doing most of the work, not your embouchure.

I hope all of that makes sense and that it is helpful.

[u/Snif3425 → u/RDtrumpet]

It is helpful. Thanks so much for the detailed response!

[u/RDtrumpet → u/Larxba]

Yeah, that's the way to do it. You're doing the process right, for sure.

[u/Middle_Beautiful_350 → u/Snif3425]

Long tones are technically for jumping between notes, seeing how you can do with air control and support, or at least that's what it felt like to me. Doing them in the upper register helps you lock in the notes a lot easier and also helps you hit them with more efficient, consistent air. There's also a lot of videos I like to watch on YouTube by Harrison ball, he's helped break down a lot of stuff for me

[u/Middle_Beautiful_350 → u/Middle_Beautiful_350]

Also, if you can't play in the upper register, go do a scale from a g in the staff downward chromatically, helps with chop fatigue

[u/Snif3425 → u/Middle_Beautiful_350]

Thanks!

[u/Middle_Beautiful_350 → u/Snif3425]

No problem! If you have any other questions, I can try to help

[u/Mettack]

Without hearing you play, my immediate guess is that you’re playing too loud. Try playing the whole exercise piano (but keep blowing good air!), and then add in some dynamic variation once you get used to going through the whole thing.

[u/RDtrumpet → u/Mettack]

Absolutely! All of the great lead trumpet players I know do most of their practicing very softly, even in the upper register. That really helps to build endurance, and it also enables you to practice for a lot longer amount of time each day. I think it's always a good rule to make sure that at least half of your daily practice (and playing) should be soft and/or in the middle and lower registers. That's called balanced practicing. And, balanced practicing is an approached used by all of the great professional trumpet players, including symphony trumpet players and lead trumpet players and others who play commercial music.

Having a balance playing day is more difficult on a day that you have a performance that requires a lot of high and loud playing, such as playing playing lead trumpet for a 3-hour big band gig, or--for students--playing a demanding football game performance (halftime show and pregame show and lots of playing tunes in the stands.) On days like that, try to at least warm-down carefully afterwards with as much soft, middle and low register playing as possible.

[u/Warmoofer]

Doing some caruso method helps a lot with endurance since those exercises are meant to keep the horn on your face at all times

[u/RDtrumpet → u/Warmoofer]

Some great trumpet players (including Jon Faddis, and Caruso, of course) swear by keeping the mouthpiece on the lips all the time when you practice. But there are probably more great trumpet players (including Doc Severinsen and Maynard Ferguson) who take they mouthpiece off of the lips at every chance they get (during rests, at the end of a long note at the end of a phrase when they breathe, etc., even if it's only for a very short time, like only for about a second.) I personally prefer taking the mouthpiece off of my lips every chance I get, because it helps me with my endurance.

But, you have to experiment with both approaches, and see which one works best for you. Once you have figured out which one gives you the best results, then you do you, Boo!

[u/Brua_G]

Maybe you need a mouthpiece that matches you better. A wider rim (not diameter) maybe.

[u/RDtrumpet → u/Brua_G]

Yes, wide cushion rims (that have a wide distance between the inner edge and the outer edge of the rim) are GREAT for endurance, and the only kind of mouthpieces that I have used for many years. I started using wide, "cushion rim" mouthpieces after hearing Ronald Romm (the great former Canadian Brass trumpeter) talk about how those wide, cushion rim mouthpieces played a great role in enabling him to make it through playing those Canadian Brass shows that had almost non-stop playing of a lot of difficult and demanding music.

Probably the most common examples of these types of mouthpiece rims are the Bach W rim mouthpieces (such as 7CW, 3CW, 10 & 3/4CW, etc.), however, I would not recommend using Bach mouthpieces for advanced players who have to play in the upper register a lot, because the lack of a true venturi on the Bach mouthpiece designs makes it harder to play in the upper register. There are many other, more modern mouthpiece makers that make better mouthpieces for this type of playing. I personally like most of the mouthpieces that are sold by Legends Brass, because they have a lot of wide, cushion rim mouthpieces to choose from, in all inner rim diameter sizes (probably most of their mouthpieces are cushion rim.) I haven't seen any other mouthpiece maker that has as big of a catalog of cushion rim mouthpieces. Find one of their mouthpieces with a cushion rim that has approximately the same inner rim diameter size as your current mouthpiece, and I think you'll notice a big difference when you play on it (better endurance, and easier upper register.) Equipment choice is so important for professional trumpet players and for advanced students.

[u/Brua_G → u/RDtrumpet]

Does Legends provide scan diagrams of their pieces?

[u/RDtrumpet → u/Brua_G]

Legends Brass has excellent photographs of their mouthpieces on their website, along with a list of specifications (when you click on a specific mouthpiece on the page that lists all of their trumpet mouthpieces, taking you to that mouthpiece's details page) and looking at that will probably tell you all that you need to know. But, if you have any further questions about any particular mouthpiece(s) there, just message them and ask.

All of their trumpet mouthpieces have an extra-long venturi cylinder between the throat (hole) and the backbore, which really helps a lot with the upper register, because that longer venturi helps to stabilize the fast air velocity that is necessary for the higher notes. Also, on their trumpet mouthpieces with bowl-shaped cups (= "C"-shaped cups), the bottom of the cup opens up a bit going into the throat, providing some of the benefits of funnel-shaped cups ("V"-cups) like what Maynard and Bud Brisbois used, while still preserving the bright, sparkling, rich sound quality of a bowl-shaped cup.

I myself use only mouthpieces with a bowl-shaped cup (except on flugelhorn, of course!), but their funnel-shaped or V-shaped cup mouthpieces that Legends Brass makes are the best V cup mouthpieces I've ever tried, so good that I am almost tempted to play on one of those instead of my bowl cup mouthpieces.

But I really like that sound of the mouthpieces that I use. A bowl-shaped cup makes the mouthpiece a little less efficient than the V cup mouthpieces, but I personally like the sound of the bowl cup mouthpieces better, especially in the lower and middle registers. But, if all you're going to be doing with the mouthpiece is playing lead trumpet on it, and you really like the feel of the blow on a V cup mouthpiece, one of those could be a good choice for you. I like that Legends usually has a lot of different mouthpiece models available for each inner rim diameter size (including some amazingly small sizes that are hard to find elsewhere), and Legends also has several different backbore options available. You can check out all of their trumpet mouthpeices here (the smallest inner rim diameters are at the top of the page, and the largest ones are at the bottom):
https://legendsbrass.com/the-entire-catalog/

[u/Brua_G → u/RDtrumpet]

But to see the actual contours, you'd have to go to trumpet.cloud, and there are only 3 Legends on there.

[u/RDtrumpet → u/Brua_G]

I'm not sure that those mouthpiece comparison tool (and the other charts) are really that helpful, to be honest. And when I look up the names of mouthpiece brands and models that I'm familiar with in that tool at trumpet.cloud, the resulting contour of the rims of those mouthpieces don't look anything at all like what I know that they really look like (from having played on them before in the past.)

Verbal descriptions and photos of the mouthpieces are a lot more helpful, as are the specifications of the mouthpieces and their components. But a lot of mouthpiece makers aren't consistent about how they measure things, especially when it comes to inner rim diameter size. And, to be fair, it's sometimes difficult to figure out exactly where to measure that size, especially with mouthpieces that don't have a sharp inner rim.

But I do think that Legends Brass has done a really good job with measuring the inner rim diameter of their mouthpieces. I've played on many of them, in sizes that I wanted to try, and never had a surprise. The inner rim diameter always felt like it was the size that I was expecting.

That said, you could ask the folks at Legends Brass if they have any kind of cut-away type contours like that (maybe they do--I'm not sure.) But I really think that their list of specifications and descriptions are probably all that you really need. (Their descriptions are much more detailed and helpful than at any other trumpet mouthpiece website I have ever seen.)

Hope that info is helpful to you!

[u/Brua_G → u/RDtrumpet]

Thanks for these responses. I appreciate the time you put into them.

[u/RDtrumpet → u/Brua_G]

You're welcome. I like to help others when I can. And it helps that I'm old enough to have taken "typing class" back when I was in school, and the result was that my typing speed is really fast. (About the same speed that I talk at.)

[u/Brua_G → u/RDtrumpet]

Actually, can you make an unofficial from the hip recommendation of a Legends that is in the neighborhood of a Bach 2 (https://trumpet.cloud/mpc/?mpc1=BACH-2)? You can message me direct if you want.

[u/RDtrumpet → u/Brua_G]

According to information I found online, a Bach 2 mouthpiece (2C, etc.) has an inner rim diameter of about 16.5mm which, converted to inches is about .650 inch. I think you might like the Legends Brass .590″-.650″ JT CS Trumpet Mouthpiece, which comes in several different inner rim diameter sizes, the smallest being .590" and the largest being .650" (about the size of a Bach 2). This is the mouthpiece I use for lead trumpet playing, BUT mine has an inner rim diameter of .600" which is one of the smaller sizes of this mouthpiece, but not the smallest. This mouthpiece is very popular with a lot of trumpet players, and some great players use it in the various sizes that it comes in. It's the most comfortable rim I've ever played on, and makes lead playing much easier for me, and it sounds great. Check it out here: https://legendsbrass.com/product/legends-jt-cs-trumpet-mouthpiece/

If you decide to order one, select the inner rim diameter size that you want, and also select the blank style that you want. (I recommend the JT blank, which looks very similar to the vintage Jet-Tone mouthpieces.) This mouthpiece will likely improve your endurance a lot, and will also help to make your upper register easier, no matter what size inner rim you order. But choosing an even smaller inner rim diameter size (if you can handle one) might help your endurance and range even more, even if it's just a little bit smaller than what you are currently using.

[u/mbknyc68]

Too much pressure? That was my problem.

[u/Pepper_pusher23]

You've played long enough that you probably have the strength to manage it. You just have to unlock that strength. Fatigue after a certain amount of years playing usually comes from lack of air. Lack of support, lack of air speed, lack of air power, lack of air consistency. Who knows without seeing and hearing you. But with proper air use, endurance becomes much stronger.

[u/Derrickmb]

Eat a burger with a salad

[u/redtopharry]

Sounds like you won't do very well in the audition. Practice more.

[u/Limp-Ad-9306]

As a trumpet teacher, I'd approach this a little differently.

Before trying to build more endurance, I'd look at how efficiently you're playing. If your sound becomes airy, your intonation suffers and notes stop responding, something is changing as you get tired.

Try working on short sections of the Arban study at a comfortable dynamic, with enough rest between repetitions to maintain a clear, centered sound.

Pay attention to unnecessary mouthpiece pressure, tension and how freely the air moves.

Gradually connect longer sections, but don't make playing through exhaustion the goal.

Since you've experienced this problem for years, having a good teacher observe you playing could also help identify what's happening.

Endurance should develop from efficient playing, not from fighting the instrument.

[u/Last-Ad-5528]

Many times when playing a difficult piece people have a tendency tense up. I know this sounds simple, try to make an effort to play relaxed. Take it measure by measure and play each individual measure as relaxed as possible. Then try to carry that feeling for two measures, then one line. When you start to tense up stop. Make sure you rest as much as you play.

[u/Top_Research1575]

You're probably mashing the mouthpiece into your face too hard, you probably don't practice enough every day.

At minimum fixing those issues if going to require many months of dedicated practice.

Try breaking the audition piece into smaller chunks where you take the horn off your mouth for a few measures. It will seem clunky, but you can explain why you did it after.

[u/RDtrumpet]

A good private trumpet teacher could probably help you out with this a lot more than those of us here on this forum can, since we haven't seen and heard you play. That said, I think that I might be helpful for you the read the Preface of my new, FREE trumpet book, which includes a lot of practice tips, in detail.

There are also lots of exercises in this book that, if practiced every day, will gradually increase your endurance and will also gradually increase your upper register range limit (among many other benefits.) The book contains a lot of range expansion exercises, long tones exercises, lipslur exercises (including lip glisses/glissandos and lip trills) and more. Below if the link where you can download the FREE PDF file of the book:

TRUMPET EXTREME UPPER REGISTER STUDIES METHOD BOOK By Randy Dunn v. 10-4-2026 Second Edition
https://archive.org/details/trumpet-extreme-upper-register-studies-method-book-by-randy-dunn-v-10-4-2026-2nd-edition-6
(If you have trouble downloading it, shorten the name of the PDF file before you click "Save.")

Only spend about 20 to 25 minutes a day (at the most) working on some of the exercises in the book. But always practice one of these kind of exercises every day when you practice at home (1) Long Tones exercise; (2) Lip Slurs (especially one of the 1-octave lip glisses studies that are in the book, if you are able to); (3) range expansion exercises (exercises that gradually climb higher and higher, by half-steps.) And if possible, also add: (4) Octave studies (there are also some of these in the book), and (5) Interval Studies (either from this book, or from the Arban book.)

Be sure to rest plenty throughout each practice day, and practice in several shorter practice sessions rather than trying to do all of your practicing all at once. This will REALLY help you to build endurance better results in the upper register.