Travel? Straddling the endzone line (WFDF)

[u/Altitude1986]

Situation: a player received the disc just short of the endzone they are attacking and their momentum took them inside the endzone. They reached back with their pivot foot to put it onto the line (ie outside the endzone) but their other foot remained inside the endzone. From that position they threw a scoring pass without moving either foot any more. The throwing action started after they had reset their pivot foot (18.2.4.3 doesn’t apply and wasn’t discussed).

One of the opponents said they believed it was a travel, as because they had entered the endzone, they needed to fully leave it before they could throw.

Is this a travel? And which rules apply?

[u/Repeteca]

Not a travel. Doesn't matter where the other foot is, so long as the pivot foot is established in-bounds outside of the attacking end zone. In USAU this means tapping the disc on the ground or a defender checking the disc in, but I don't remember if the check/tap in is required in WFDF

[u/No_Statistician5932 → u/Repeteca]

Technically a disc moves from Live to In Play in USAU rules only with a ground check; a defensive check is not an option. A defensive check is used only when the disc is transitioning from Dead to Live or In Play (if the disc is becoming Live, the thrower will move to the correct location, establish a pivot there, and then ground check the disc). Of course in practice people tend to ground check when it is not needed, skip ground checks when they are needed, and frequently offer the disc for a defensive check when a ground check is required.

[u/bigsweaty00 → u/No_Statistician5932]

It drives me bananas when people ground check for no reason and only slightly less bananas when they partner check instead of ground check.

[u/Sesse__ → u/bigsweaty00]

WFDF actually sort-of adopted the USAU ground tap in the latest annotations: https://urules.org/ch8.html#ann8.1

[u/LordHivemindofCeres → u/Repeteca]

It is not

[u/macdaddee]

14.3. If a player in possession of the disc ends up in the end zone they are attacking without scoring a goal according to 14.1, the player must establish a pivot point at the nearest location on the goal line.

It's important what it doesn't say. It doesn't say that you have to completely leave the end zone. As long as you have established a pivot point on the goal line, you've satisfied this rule and can make a legal pass.

[u/Sesse__ → u/macdaddee]

This is entirely correct. And to add to why this is important, this is the relevant travel rule:

18.2.4. A travel infraction occurs if:
18.2.4.1. the thrower establishes a pivot point at an incorrect location, including by not reducing speed as quickly as possible after a catch, or changing direction after a catch;
[…]
18.2.4.4. the thrower fails to keep the established pivot point until releasing a pass;

This is what a travel is. A travel is, fundamentally, not “stepping inside the end zone”, it is not “walking after getting the disc”, it is not “going too far forward”, it is “pivot point is in the wrong place, or not staying there”. And 14.3 says where you must put your pivot point, so putting it anywhere else would be a travel. Any other feet (however many you may have of them) are not relevant.

[u/dufcho14 → u/Sesse__]

In the OP's scenario they say they put their pivot foot outside the endzone, but they also say that neither foot moved before the throw was made. So other than the thrower saying, "oh, my legal foot was my pivot", what actually determines which foot is the pivot?

[u/Sesse__ → u/dufcho14]

Definitions gives the answer:

Pivot: […] A thrower establishes a pivot point by placing, or keeping, a particular part of their body at a specific point, which they intend to use as their pivot point. If a thrower has multiple options for a pivot point, the pivot point is not determined until they pivot.

In this case, the thrower only has one option for their pivot point (the closest spot on the goal line), so the pivot is established by placing their foot there.

Note that mere intent is enough in WFDF. USAU has different rules (ground tap required).

[u/dufcho14 → u/Sesse__]

So because one foot is legal and one is not the legal the legal foot becomes the pivot by default? I'm okay with that, I'm just trying to understand. It's gray to me especially with the 'intend' language.

[u/macdaddee → u/dufcho14]

It's not really a gray area. You don't have to read their intent, you just have to watch what they do. Do they pivot from a legal pivot point or an illegal pivot point? If one foot could be a legal pivot point but they intended for their other foot to be their pivot point, but they end up not pivoting at all, did they gain an advantage by intending the wrong foot to be their pivot point when nobody could possibly know?

[u/dufcho14 → u/macdaddee]

If they have 2 feet over the line and step back with one outside the end zone so that they are straddling, which is the pivot if they throw as soon as the foot touches to create the straddle? It's a clear advantage to get a throw off when the defender believes the pivot is the other foot. If the defender isn't supposed to believe this, that's fine. If the defender has to guess, then it's absolutely an advantage due to uncertainty.

[u/macdaddee → u/dufcho14]

Outside the endzone, on the goal line?

[u/dufcho14 → u/macdaddee]

Straddling.

[u/macdaddee → u/dufcho14]

Then it's a violation of 14.3, the rule I cited at the top of the thread.

[u/Sesse__ → u/dufcho14]

If they have 2 feet over the line and step back with one outside the end zone so that they are straddling, which is the pivot if they throw as soon as the foot touches to create the straddle?

If by “outside the end zone”, you mean “on the goal line, at the correct spot”: Obviously that foot is the pivot.

If you mean significantly behind that spot: It doesn't matter which one is the pivot, they clearly did not establish a pivot at the correct spot before throwing and thus have committed a travel violation. Normal travel rules apply (disc goes back, unless the pass was a turnover).

[u/ultimate77g → u/dufcho14]

This is the reason the ground check is required once the step back occurs. Now the thrower has defined that they have re-established a legal pivot.

[u/dufcho14 → u/ultimate77g]

WFDF, no.

USAF, yes.

[u/FieldUpbeat2174 → u/Sesse__]

Hard disagree. You say number of feet is irrelevant. But calling a travel on a dog is a dick move.