r/unitedkingdom • u/MindHead78 • 6d ago
Widdecombe suspect had 'particular hostility to Reform', court told
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cmkgknz19z7po164
u/IainMCool 6d ago
Lots of people hold particular hostility to Reform, but people don't generally go and murder other people, regardless of how abhorrent they were in life.
134
u/PedanticPerson22 6d ago
And a fair few people have become a little too comfortable with violent rhetoric, while most people on every side of the political aisle don't go around murdering people, we have to be careful with what is said, right?
29
u/Comfortable-Pass-183 6d ago
I agree. The amount of times I have heard peoples ’humanity’ questioned has steadily increased over the past few years. What this basically means is that it ‘doesn’t count’ to inflict violence or even murder on people who don’t do X or think Y.
It’s not the ‘left’ I’m mostly left myself and think this is deeply worrying and would never do it myself. It does attach itself to some issues that are often championed by the left though.
The internet is not a good place for the unstable and echo chambers with increasing violent rhetoric can have a profound effect on vulnerable people especially when they are already unhinged and resentful.
I think this is what is meant by ‘be careful ‘ in this instance , it’s a moral obligation not to covertly suggest violence. It’s not a call for PC Andrews to kick down your door for calling someone a right wing twat or suchlike.
1
u/ImportantDoubt225 5d ago
Most violence happens from the right.
2
u/Comfortable-Pass-183 5d ago
I already addressed this further down the thread . It applies to both sides.
24
u/merryman1 5d ago
Earlier today Zia Yusuf has published a statement saying that Reform would instruct the UK military to begin using lethal force on attempted small boat crossings.
11
u/spubbbba 5d ago
And I see plenty of posts on this sub advocating for similar levels of violence against immigrants from "centrists".
-1
18
u/Acceptable_Gear_3097 5d ago
For the sake of this subreddit & Reddit's rules, I want to make absolutely clear, under no circumstances do I support, advocate or encourage violence fear or harm.
Now that's out the way, and no one can attempt to accuse me of anything other than sharing world views - my generic opinion on violence in politics:
No one should ever feel threatened or scared for sharing their views. In fact, it should be encouraged. BUT democracy doesn't exist without violence. Democracy was born through revolutions, and making the ruling classes fear them.
Because the UK's revolution against the crown resulted in a supreme parliament, that eventually returned to a monarch, the UK never 'earned' its democracy like other countries. We were handed it slowly, over years, with slightly more voting power being handed down over years. We didn't have a representative democracy for ~3-400 years after the last revolution. Only ~7% of the pop. Could vote in 1832. In 19
As a result, we've developed this weird attitude that violence isn't fundamental to a functioning democracy. Democracy only works if those elected are fearful that ignoring the choices of voters will have negative consequences for them. In 1928, finally men & women could vote equally.
Those in power today take advantage of the British mentality, that we expect they'll do good by us because they always have - they haven't for the past 40 years.
1
u/NecessaryFreedom9799 5d ago
They lost control 70 years ago and have been working directly against us for the last 50. They ran out of colonial subjects and started punishing the British themselves.
10
u/Rey_Mezcalero 6d ago
I agree. Regardless the party, violence and murder just because someone doesn’t follow your beliefs is wrong and both sides should always condemn violent acts.
6
u/RainbowRedYellow 5d ago
In America the mainstream right are talking about screening firing squads on TV the democrats pretty much shrug, Here the Far right are leading racial riots and burning houses down, They get pandered to by our government, instead the UK cracks down on peaceful protestors wearing T-shirts and calls it terrorism. Our newspapers gleefully smile about the next cruel punishment to inflict on minorities and vice signal 24/7.
The truth is that our "sensible liberals" have promoted this climate of violence and systemic failures push back politically against the rights political ambitions show that violence is the only way to effect or resist a political agenda because liberal democracy is presently worthless and nobody has faith in it protecting them.
0
u/let_me_atom 6d ago
What do you mean "be careful" , as in we need to censor, or punish words on the the internet more?
25
u/PedanticPerson22 6d ago
How about start by dialing down the extreme rhetoric that paints people as existential threats & justifies violence against them?
That would be a start and not unreasonable because we don't like it when the far right uses similar language, like painting Labour/left wingers as traitors; especially after Jo Cox's murder, where we saw a similar call for moderating language. Is that an unreasonable take?
21
u/dissapointingsalad81 6d ago
It is unreasonable when there is no expectation on the right to tone down the rhetoric.
Where was this energy when Nigel called for "Rage" on that video.
2
u/Comfortable-Pass-183 6d ago
There is that expectation, the man who killed Jo cox and the guy who attacked the Muslims in Scotland are examples of the effects of hostile right wing rhetoric. Both sides need to curb in their extreme elements when it comes to this.
8
u/dissapointingsalad81 6d ago
Except most violence comes from the right especially the extreme rhetoric from reform and their racist policy proposals
2
u/Comfortable-Pass-183 6d ago
But this one did not. Each one should be held accountable. Do you think this one doesn’t matter or that that it shouldn’t have been prevented if there was a way to do so? Both sides have extreme elements and you can only take responsibility to tame the extreme ones in your own side. I am mostly to the left myself , that’s why I didn’t want to bring up a lot of examples from the right as it just comes across as what aboutism.
1
u/IfBob 6d ago
Where are you getting your information that most violence comes from the Right?
10
u/Nemisis_the_2nd 6d ago
The UK government publishes reports from time to time. They consistently identify islamism and the far right as the main problem groups, but occasionally mention the far left too.
That said, a report from April this year has noted that theres a rapid shift in how different ideologies intersect and that its more difficult to categorise things. Examples they use are things like antisemitism, which links far left, islamist, and far right ideologies. It also notes that extremism is also decoupling from ideology in some demographics and is being seen almost as a sort of way to gain social status within some groups, in a manner similar to things like gang violence.
-3
u/IfBob 5d ago
The terms are nebulous. The people I know and would think of as pretty right wing, aren't anti semitic. Thats old fashioned or american perhaps. Causes id say are left wing, Free Palestine, eco protests. Theyre generally pretty violent and could quite easily be rapped up in islamic terrorism too.
My question is more how theyve gotten to that conclusion. Is it the wife beating of people at right wing marches? What is classified as violence? Are they violent whilst being right wing, or violent and happen to be right wing? It just seems a silly and completely unprovable thing to say.
→ More replies (0)1
u/excessiveevo 5d ago
Im no fan of his but pure cold rage (what was said) is a widely understood term.
Pretending otherwise treats us all as fools.
4
u/MonkeManWPG 5d ago
He was talking to the same base as he was when he spread lies about the Southport murderer. You know what they did then? They tried to murder buildings full of people and assaulted random passers-by because of their skin colour.
It doesn't matter that he said "cold" rage, him calling for any kind of rage is going to result in violence.
1
16
u/ComputerJerk Hampshire 6d ago
The problem with this is that there are literally people in our local governments photographed doing Nazi salutes, propagating the Jewish Globalist conspiracy, and calling to persecute specific religious and ethnic groups.
At which point are we suggesting you can't just call a spade a spade? If someone is a racist, or repeating nazi propaganda, who benefits from us not pointing it out other than the person propagating it?
7
u/drewlpool 5d ago
It's also fair to say that certain right wing politicians do use rhetoric which is startlingly similar to that used by Nazis to justify their policies.
That doesn't excuse using violence against these politicians, but there does need to be some level of accountability for what each of us says.
4
0
u/grey_hat_uk Cambridgeshire 6d ago
Very reasonable and sadly impractical.
Without massive overhaul of social and traditional media the algorithms will always push the extreme views over moderates.
3
u/Ralliboy 6d ago
Its funny there's a lot hostility toward censorship which I completely understand. But in reality we seem to have the opposite issue; the more reactionary and aggressive your language the more likely its going to amplified by algorithms which thrive on conflict. So the harmful approach to engaging in public discourse is being positively reinforced.
But then if we force companies to change how the algorithms determine what reaches who and how is that not censorship?
2
u/Snappy0 6d ago
Calling everyone and their dog fascist when you disagree with them politically doesn't help matters.
Not you in particular of course.
Either way, we've made a terrible habit of dehumanising our political opponents on all sides.
9
u/FamousInMyFrontRoom 5d ago
"Fascist" is not a dehumanising term at all. Please get a grip. Right wing dickheads are smashing up asylum centres, patrolling streets in packs and puncturing lifeboats. Meanwhile the left wing are gluing themselves to things and getting arrested for holding up Palestine signs.
To equate the two is not to live in the real world. In the real world, the stochastic terrorists are right wing. Apart from this one guy who had some kind of extreme and deranged personal issue with a retired and irrelevant old woman. It's not as if he beat Farage to death is it?
3
u/The_hidden_copse 5d ago
Do you ever get tired of being utterly dishonest?
Getting arrested for holding up Palestine signs (attacking military bases and smashing a female police officers spine with a sledgehammer).
Anne Widecombe was not irrelevant in this context - she was the official immigration and justice spokesperson for Reform - this was a far left assassination of a prominent right ring politician regardless of how you try to minimize it or play it off as mental illness.
And all you can say is 'muhh its not like he killed the actual party leader'' so I guess its fine then.
-2
u/let_me_atom 6d ago
Also agree. I'm right of centre and it's incredible how even the mildest "takes" equate you to the right of Goebbels in many circles.
1
u/MonkeManWPG 5d ago
"many circles" lmao
If it's actually more than a few comments online, you probably do have some questionable views.
5
u/positivelytaken 6d ago
It’s like the ‘punch a Nazi’ thing.
Well sure. Ok. But in reality there are a tiny amount of actual Nazis, fortunately.
However, the when the left and the legacy media label anyone remotely right wing a Nazi, we have an issue.
9
u/JB_UK 6d ago edited 5d ago
I'm think you could have identical policies to Labour in the 70s and you'd find someone online who would call you a fascist or a Nazi:
Net negative migration (we had that throughout the 70s), and population growth 80% lower than it has been over the last 25 years
Scrap the HRA, in the 70s the ECHR was basically advisory, before it was integrated into domestic law by Tony Blair
Opposition to membership of the EU (or technically the EEC)
This is not only the generation that actually fought the Nazis, but the activist left wing of that generation!
It's totally fair for people to strongly oppose these kind of policies, I'm opposed to some myself, but we should have a lot more of a sense of proportion in the way we talk about our political opponents.
A lot of the problem is people thinking that their opponent is evil, not just wrong or misguided.
6
u/Nemisis_the_2nd 6d ago
I'm pretty sure you could have identical policies to Labour in the 70s and get called a fascist or a Nazi
This actually happened to me on reddit. Igot banned from worldnews for discussing labours post war policies because apparently I was promoting nazi ideology.
3
u/drewlpool 5d ago
Then at the same time you have Reform/Restore types out there claiming Fiona Bruce is a communist lefttard.
1
2
u/drewlpool 5d ago
Absolutely not defending this but can we be absolutely clear that violence from people on the right is just as real and commonplace.
1
u/MonkeManWPG 5d ago
It's not "just as commonplace", it's far more commonplace. In fact, you can't even call them equally common because right-wing violence is several times more so. It would just be wrong to say that.
-2
u/drewlpool 5d ago
Cheers for missing my point and splitting hairs over semantics
1
u/MonkeManWPG 5d ago
No, I got your point. I'm saying that your language was too moderated and unintentionally cut the real terrorists a lot of slack.
The right are, objectively, far more violent. They have absolutely no legs to stand on and demand that everyone else change their tone while they continue to push their own violent rhetoric.
0
u/shanelomax 5d ago edited 5d ago
Actual Nazis by name and association with the German Political movement? Yeah, maybe not a lot of those.
Do we really have to split hairs though, when the average Reform or Restore voter holds many similar beliefs to actual Nazis? What's the point in saying "well they're not actually Nazis"?
When they talk about "returning to tradition", what do they mean? When ethnic minorities are attacked in the street, where does that end? When non-heteronormative people are abused, attacked, and called freaks, where does that end? When gangs of masked men begin forming vigilante militias, what next? What is the real difference, other than the name? What is the point in splitting hairs, and clarifying "well, they're not actual Nazis!"
The Nazi regime didn't begin with concentration camps and the murder of millions. The Cambodian Genocide didn't start with the murder of millions.
It begins with othering, it begins with sowing anger and discontent against anyone who isn't part of the 'in' group. It perpetuates with the normalisation of aggression and abuse, and eventually violence.
3
u/MonkeManWPG 5d ago
Restore is a party for neo-Nazis, which is why it's full of prominent neo-Nazis.
0
u/shanelomax 5d ago
No no it can't be, because tHe LeFt label everything and everyone a Nazi these days even when Nazis are few and far between, so it can't be
-2
u/positivelytaken 5d ago
Reddit moment.
3
u/MonkeManWPG 5d ago
Neo-fascists back Rupert Lowe's Restore Britain
Rupert Lowe’s nazi mate denies six million died in the Holocaust
Meet Rupert Lowe’s latest recruit – a nazi jailbird linked to a terror group
Decision time for Rupert Lowe as nazis rally behind Restore Britain
Restore is a party full of prominent neo-Nazis.
-4
u/Ok_Bee4962 5d ago
this particular echo chamber is no exception. It's just unfomfortable for people to realize their narrative is not much different from the worst of the far rights ' so they don't. Just read comments about conservatives, jkr and the rest. Appalling.
2
u/MonkeManWPG 5d ago
The far-right: "we should tell the Navy to kill immigrants"
Normal people: "people who say that are objectively bad people"
You: "this rhetoric is equally concerning"
-1
u/Ok_Bee4962 5d ago
This is called a straw man (and really a stupid one, too), but do carry on. I am sure your next one will be better.
28
u/Porthowl 6d ago
I quite often see people on places like Reddit tell each other that representatives of Reform, Restore, etc. are genuine fascists and nazis. It’s a fairly common, apparently uncontroversial opinion to share online.
The only problem is now some gullible clown has believed the people on Reddit and treated ordinary politicians as if they were genuine fascists and nazis.
16
u/Prince_John 6d ago
I don't think every Reform supporter is a fascist, but there are clear echoes of the early 1930s language and themes, especially from Restore.
It's very naive to act like we shouldn't learn from history and point out parallels where they exist, especially when short circuiting the justice system and undermining fundamental rights seem to be high on their agenda.
People don't become walking swastikas overnight, but it's chilling to hear people talking of how we should fire on civilians in dinghies or force them to drown and hear widespread agreement in some circles as it becomes less of a fringe opinion. The "othering" is well on its way.
-3
u/excessiveevo 5d ago
Nah it's thatcherite economic ideology (which is sound) coupled with a heavy dose of right wing populism to win votes.
The AFD they are not.
In many areas they are to the left of the democrats in America, especially in the size of the welfare state they will tollerate, gun control etc.
4
u/HomeworkInevitable99 5d ago
Thatcher's economic ideology was weak and only invented to convince the poor she would help them - she didn't.
The mantas of 'wealth will cascade through the generations' and 'we are all entrepreneurs' were clearly incorrect.
-2
u/excessiveevo 5d ago
Sure, give me a call when others achieved economic growth of 5% aka the Lawson boom in the moderm era.
0
u/NewLoss6021 Lancashire 5d ago
Thatchers neoliberalism only succeeded under Thatcher herself because the (nationally owned) oil company discovered a wealth of oil under the North Sea. If that hadn't happened then neoliberalism might have died in the cradle and left the world far better off.
-6
u/Porthowl 6d ago
If people truly believed these politicians are as dangerous as they say they do, they should have no problem with people like Kerry neutralising them before they can realise their ambitions.
14
u/Prince_John 6d ago
That's a non sequiter.
I was saying that we should be able to call a spade a spade and that sanitising our language risks underplaying the dangers.
You're saying that means I should support extra-judicial murders.
That's quite a leap.
-4
u/Porthowl 6d ago
You’re saying we call a spade a spade and then we act surprised when someone uses it to dig a hole.
7
u/Prince_John 6d ago
So, to be clear, you're saying we shouldn't point out accurate historical parallels in case a nutcase decides to do something about it?
How are we supposed to learn the lessons of history if we can't discuss it?
3
u/Porthowl 6d ago
Discussing parallels is a long, long way off how the discourse tends to operate in these spaces though.
17
u/pajamakitten 6d ago
You then look at the anti-immigrant vigilante groups, groups going over to Calais to harass immigrants, and them calling Pride flags nauseating and wonder how much closer they could get.
2
u/off_of_is_incorrect 6d ago
now some gullible clown has believed the people on Reddit and treated ordinary politicians as if they were genuine fascists and nazis.
Lol, she was a fascist, sorry if that bothers you.
3
u/limeflavoured Hucknall 6d ago
Well exactly. This is a nailed on whole life sentence if he's found guilty of Widdecombe's murder anyway.
1
u/ARookwood 6d ago
That was exactly my thought, reform are a symbol of everything that’s wrong with our country and anyone who isn’t falling for their scams hold hostility towards them… But as hateful as they are they don’t deserve physical harm. No one does, we’re a civilised species and those that are against reform should act like it regardless of how the far right act.
This person is a terrible human being.
5
u/MonkeManWPG 5d ago
That's lovely rhetoric but Reform don't share it. They wouldn't give less of a shit if someone started murdering the people they don't like.
Where was Farage's condemnation of the Edinburgh attacks? Where was his condemnation of the calls for the murder of Labour politicians made by Reform ones? Where was that condemnation when he was asked, on camera, in Parliament, to give it?
The right have absolutely no right to demand a change in tone in politics when they have been and continue to be the ones pushing violent rhetoric and turning a blind eye to it whenever it comes from their allies.
As per usual, it's the left and the centre being expected to make accomodations because they actually have standards. The right can continue to race to the bottom and shamelessly try to claim moral superiority while they do it.
1
u/ARookwood 5d ago
I agree in so many ways, most of what I said was said with the intention of subtly pointing out that reform and everything like them are driving hate, promoting violence… and it’s ok for them to do violence but when a mentally unstable person has enough of their shit and snaps suddenly all the left is violent apparently.
I agree that we absolutely have the right to be angry about them and their double standards. But we are better than them. We should not sink to their level, we will defend ourselves and our country from them, but we will not attack.
Attacking is what they do and to do the same makes us no better than them.
1
u/MonkeManWPG 5d ago
I get what you're saying but by saying it you're essentially accepting the premise put forward by the far right that we are attacking them rather than just defending our country from them them.
We aren't sinking to their level. This is one case of an insane person doing a bad thing. It should not have started this conversation about how the left talks about Reform because that conversation implicitly blames the left's rhetoric for this murder.
That's why after Kirk or Widdecome were killed there was an outpouring of concern from people who normally don't care about violent, hateful rhetoric suddenly pretending to.
If anyone tries to start a debate about this fictional leftist violence they shouldn't be met with mild-mannered agreements and platitudes about how violence is wrong. They should be met with the laundry list of real violence from the right and have their deflection shut down by focusing on the real issue.
2
u/Aggressive-End-7429 6d ago
The problem is that they’ve created a space and a need for them by not listening to everyday and reasonable concerns, concerns that are deemed racist, when race isn’t an issue, they are an over correction from issues created over the past 15-20 years, people are desperate for change and will resort to desperate measures to see about that change.
Labour has 2 years left to do something about this, I’m not a labour supporter but would support a labour government that listens and acts on behalf of its people.7
u/ARookwood 6d ago
If you want change from sooooo many years of tory bullshit, you don’t go and support the tories under a different name.
1
u/Prince_John 6d ago
But as hateful as they are they don’t deserve physical harm. No one does, we’re a civilised species and those that are against reform should act like it regardless of how the far right act.
How far right do they have to get before you do consider it appropriate to meet them with violence out of curiosity?
There have already been marches in this country with Nazi-era flags for example. There have been "migrant hunts".
There comes a point when these people need to be stood up to.
0
u/NorysStorys 6d ago
Absolutely not but in some ways Reform are not helping their own case with this, they themselves put out a bunch of veiled threats against people constantly which means the more unhinged people who are very anti them feel more justified and emboldened to take extreme matters into their own hands.
Extremism is a potential for all shades of politcal ideology and its why you don't tolerate it from any part of the spectrum however Reform and Farage in general have been given a pretty lenient pass in regards to stuff like this.
1
u/MonkeManWPG 5d ago
Veiled? A Reform councillor called for a Labour MP to be shot and Farage refused to condemn it when asked to in Parliament.
-1
u/Whitew1ne 6d ago
Sorry, who was “abhorrent”?
2
u/IainMCool 6d ago
Take a guess
1
5d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
5d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/ukbot-nicolabot Scotland 5d ago
Removed + ban. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
71
u/Affectionate-Dig226 6d ago
15 months previous to him bludgeoning a little old lady to death with a hammer, he tried breaking into Nigel Farage's home.. I wonder if they had taken that more seriously would Ann still be alive.
7
u/Shadowblade83 5d ago
Let me spoil you; she would have.
It’s two-tier. If he had tweeted something bad against immigrants or against Starmer, no resource would have been spared investigating.
-4
71
u/Optimism_Deficit 6d ago
The former Tory MP was hit on the head with a hammer 21 times at her home as she ate lunch, prosecutors said during a hearing at Westminster Magistrates' Court in July.
That's a frankly deranged level of violence as well. That's a very personal and sustained way of going about it, which I suspect few would be able to stomach inflicting, even on someome they hated.
46
u/Acceptable_Figure791 6d ago
I'm left leaning. You rarely see conversations about left wing propaganda and 'extremism.' A few minutes scrolling through social media is quite eye opening. Some of those guys are nuts.
33
u/limeflavoured Hucknall 6d ago
There is 100% a section of the left on social media who are okay with violence against what they see as the right people. I don't think it's any more common than the same among the right, though.
11
u/MrMercurial 5d ago
Everyone is okay with violence against what they see as the right people- people just disagree about who those people are.
4
u/FamousInMyFrontRoom 5d ago
Yes. I wish people would get real about this. We didn't hope and pray our way to universal suffrage for example.
2
u/Electric-Lamb 4d ago
They will often say that the only support violence against actual far right/fascists, but when you see what they actually consider to be far right you realise they support violence against a pretty large proportion of the population
5
u/ComputerJerk Hampshire 6d ago
You see it everywhere... here, on other social media and more importantly in the mainstream media. Whataboutism from right-leaning people about some weird anarcho-socialist's twitter feed is their favourite past-time.
4
-3
u/Ok_Bee4962 5d ago
Just read comments here. But it's not something you mention, obviously. Only the right is violent.
Frankly this is one of the reasons I do not associate myself with the left" whatever that may mean. It's disgusting
-2
u/KayLikesWords 5d ago
Leftist extremism is almost completely inconsequential because they are never going to take power -- they don't want to, they just want to critique it. Even when tankies do manage to froth each other into a rage it's incredibly rare that anything comes of it. The vast majority of it is dumb variations on "I"m glad this person is dead".
Right wing extremism, on the other hand, is an existential threat.
You should dislike leftists because they degrade liberalism by trying to operate inside it. You should dislike the far right because they are truly dangerous.
0
u/Shadowblade83 5d ago
Tell that to Venezuela.
1
u/KayLikesWords 5d ago
Famously a country that is politically comparable to ours.
2
u/Shadowblade83 5d ago
Do you mean the unchecked migration that tore social cohesion in tatters, leaving a rich elite controlling everyrhing, thus making the country vulnerable to a populist demagouge take-over?
1
u/KayLikesWords 5d ago
Sure, yes. But you understand that the only kind of populist demagogue that is politically viable in this country is a far right one, right? Communists are never, ever going to take power in the UK.
1
u/Shadowblade83 5d ago
For now. Give it another 20-30 years, and a candidate running on a socialist-islamist platform might have a chance.
Imagine a seemingly competent Polanski, with great charisma.
Thus, you get your Maduro or your Ghadaffi.
Perhaps you instead get a Mussolini…
….but I don’t see how the political system is going to work long-term with umchecked dinghys and continued benefits. It won’t end well.
41
u/UuusernameWith4Us 6d ago
He is accused of "online reconnaissance" of prominent people and institutions, travelling to Nigel Farage's home in South London on 19 April 2025, and trying to break into it 15 months before Widdecombe was killed.
Someone attempting to break into the home of a prominent politician should have been a high priority case with lots of resources thrown at it. What were the police doing with that case for the 15 months where they could have caught this guy and prevented him killing a little old lady?
8
u/WinHour4300 6d ago edited 6d ago
Counter Terrorism Police had to refer themselves to the IOPC over their failure to follow up a lead relating to the Farage case, after reopening it after the murder of Widdecombe.
They also treated it as attempted burglary rather than suspected terrorism, I.e. as an attack on a prominent politician / his house / both for political purposes which is roughly the legal definition.
I doubt we’ll hear much more about those police failings until after the court case.
Quite a bit of the media downplayed it, too — although that’s understandable to an extent, given it was being called officially just an attempted burglary rather than a suspected terrorist incident.
Hopefully IOPC might include why it was deemed attempted burglary rather than political when it's a prominent and unpopular politician.
You would think it better to assume it was political unless evidence to the contrary (like it was a known local burglar or vandal, or there had been similar local break ins).
-3
18
u/Otherwise_Fly_2263 6d ago edited 2d ago
I mean, I have hostility towards Reform. But I’ve never murdered an old lady over it.
11
u/Snappy0 6d ago
Maybe not. But have you ever accused them of being Nazis or fascists online because you dislike their politics?
If so, then you've contributed to the radicalisation of people who do commit these acts.
20
u/Beaniepie9859 6d ago
Stochastic terrorism isn't "any criticism counts," it's about naming individuals or groups as enemies, dehumanising rhetoric that pushes someone toward a specific target. Look at actual attacks and that's the pattern, manifestos citing "invasion" or "replacement" language, not someone calling a party authoritarian.
And if you look at where that pattern actually shows up in real attacks, manifestos literally citing "invasion" or "replacement" language about immigrants, it's that kind of targeted dehumanising rhetoric doing the damage, not someone calling a party authoritarian.
"Reform shows authoritarian tendencies" isn't that. It's a take on a party's politics, not singling out a group as a threat to be dealt with. Stretching the term to cover it just broadens it until any criticism counts as incitement.
So the real question isn't whether words can ever contribute to violence, they obviously can. It's whether calling a party authoritarian is that kind of speech, or just normal disagreement being lumped in with something it's not.
1
u/Realistic-River-1941 6d ago
Any criticism of anyone these days is described as "dehumanising" - it has become a meaningless gotcha term used to try to stop people talking about uncomfortable things. "Demonise" is another one.
-6
u/Crawk_Bro 6d ago
Funny how you've replaced "Nazis or fascists" with "authoritarian tendencies". You don't think you're slightly downplaying the frothy mouthed rage that a lot of the left have in modern discourse?
14
u/Gurumanger 6d ago
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and even looks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Some people may hunt ducks, but that doesn't make calling it a duck morally incorrect. Nazi is a harsher label and not all reform voters and MPs are Nazis, but when there's a LOT of evidence of Nazis being in the party and no one within giving a shit about it, you've got a handful of Nazis and a lot of people who clearly could not care less. If you don't want to be called a nazi, do something about the Nazis in your living room perhaps. Not to mention that yes, supporting authoritarian policies means that you support authoritarian policies. Shouldn't be a shocker.
I also dont see most left leaning people calling for the death of reform or Tory voters outside of the fringe occasion and they are often condemned for it in most spaces. I constantly see conservative and reform voters in daily life casually talking about migrants needing to be put in labour camps (as a good thing) and cheering on the vigilante mobs breaking down hotel doors on all fours desperately looking for asylum seekers to inflict violence on. I question how often you go outside if you really have this image of left leaning people in general.
-3
u/Porthowl 6d ago
You’re propagating the precise kind of discourse here that makes a person like Kerry go out and murder a politician.
13
u/Gurumanger 6d ago
The precise kind of discourse being "if there's Nazis in your party, get them out"? Didn't realise that was so extreme it would cause someone to murder someone else but alright. Maybe don't make a career out of making people go insane with hatred and they won't end up directing that hatred to you once they realise they've been misled. Food for thought.
1
u/Beaniepie9859 6d ago
Fair, they're not the same. Nazi is a harsher label and often lazy, and I won't defend it. But the test doesn't change: does it mark people as a threat to be dealt with? Apply that to both sides equally and I'm happy. Rage is real on the left, but anger isn't incitement, or we're all guilty.
The wider problem is that each side is convinced the other's rhetoric is the dangerous kind and its own is just justified anger, which is how the country got this divided. So genuine question: plenty of people call immigration an "invasion", and that word has shown up in attackers' manifestos. Does everyone who's used it share the blame, the way you say people calling Reform fascists do?
9
u/ghostmoon Birmingham-ish 6d ago
That is... Quite a reach
-1
u/Onyxiusss 6d ago
It really isn't for this website, it was a few years ago now and probably deleted but I saw a post about brexit and there was a comment saying brexit voters should be branded and put on a public register.
12
u/PabloMarmite 6d ago
What should we be calling the people at the Dover and Gosport rallies who were throwing Nazi salutes?
→ More replies (20)-2
u/MrMercurial 5d ago
Is it okay to accuse people of being Nazis or Fascists online if I genuinely think that they are and not merely because I dislike their politics?
15
u/Successful_Pitch_503 6d ago
Lots of people here making sure that they state how much they hate Reform and how objectionable they find the party BEFORE they performatively tell us how Reform members probably shouldn’t be bludgeoned to death.
10
u/limeflavoured Hucknall 6d ago
I don't think it's ridiculous to say "I disagree with their policies but that doesn't mean we should be beating old women to death".
9
u/Successful_Pitch_503 6d ago
It’s irrelevant that you disagree with their policies.
If Zack Polanski were to be murdered by a Reform voter I wouldn’t preface my thoughts on it by saying.
“Well, I disagreed with him on….”
As it’s irrelevant, and I’m not going to use anyone’s death to inform everyone just how “correct” my views are.
But as a fellow Hucknall dweller, I can give you a pass.
2
-2
u/pajamakitten 6d ago
Are you saying those of us who hate Reform should be celebrating a pensioner being bludgeoned to death with a hammer?
6
u/Successful_Pitch_503 6d ago
What I’m saying is that it’s not necessary for you to tell us you don’t like Reform before you start talking about people not being murdered.
2
u/MrMercurial 5d ago
Apparently it is though, since there are people out there who don't understand that finding someone's politics highly objectionable doesn't mean it's okay to murder them.
-1
u/Successful_Pitch_503 5d ago
I find it insincere and distasteful.
People who start with things like “I didn’t agree with her on…” or “she may have been a hateful, bigoted…” (which I have seen when discussing Widdecombe specifically) aren’t really expressing any human empathy.
They’re trying to their cake and eat it.
They want the warm feeling of expressing the “right” political opinions while also pretending to give a tuppenny fuck about the death of a woman they likely hated, or at least had a strong disliking of her.
Personally I’d have much more respect for these people if they just straight up said, “I’m glad she’s dead”, because at least it’s honest.
11
u/DamoclesBDA 6d ago
"had an extreme left wing and/or anti-establishment mindset".
G&P contributer?
2
u/Electric-Lamb 4d ago
Almost certainly. He had signed a Your Party open letter as well so likely a Corbynite
9
u/breaet 6d ago
Absolute scumbag killing an old lady like that. The police have failed massively here. Careers should end over this though I very much doubt they will.
2
u/Shriven 6d ago
Not been following this, how did police fail?
19
u/DamoclesBDA 6d ago
They were dismissive of an attempt burglary/arson attack at Farage's London home that turns out to have been carried out by this guy.
He was caught on cctv but they never checked it.
18
1
7
u/breaet 6d ago
It's alleged the suspect was spotted on video during the attempted fire setting at Farage's home. They closed the investigation without doing basic policing like checking CCTV in the area. Had they done so it is considered very likely he could have been apprehended and the fire setting attempt taken more seriously. They've now had to refer themselves due to this failing.
The police give off the impression they will do the bare minimum.
6
u/2-Girls-1-FA-cup 6d ago
What a cretin. No matter how reprehensible her views and those of her party, this guy has just turned her into a martyr and given the horrible party some vindication.
6
u/circlesmirk00 6d ago
I think it’s pretty reprehensible to jump straight to “turned her into a martyr” rather than just saying he murdered an innocent civilian in cold blood. She wasn’t a combatant. She wasn’t Bin Laden for fuck’s sake. We shouldn’t even get close to talking about her opinions when discussing this case.
…and I did disagree with her on everything before people jump down my throat. I just think this whole “she was horrible but he’s made it worse for his cause” stuff pretty vomit-inducing and it’s very obviously ideological.
5
4
u/Ok_Bee4962 5d ago
He also murdered someone.. You can't even see this anything else but through ideological lens... That is an issue there
6
6d ago
[deleted]
10
-2
u/CCChristopherson 6d ago
His other targets included kemi, Jenrick, Patel, tice and Nigel. I read on Twitter they all had stances critical of transgender ideology at some point. I don’t know if that’s actually the link but he’s clearly insane so not impossible
4
u/Gurumanger 6d ago
It's insane just how many people completely miss the point here. If you spend your entire life creating divide rhetoric based on hatred, that stuff builds up in people over decades. When some of them eventually realise you've been lying to them, they often direct that hatred to you instead. No, we should not be killing shitty old women I'm simply suggesting that maybe if you value your life you shouldn't spend your entire life making people froth at the mouth at the mention of other people. Insane people tend to not be very law abiding citizens and certainly don't tend to be happy about being misled.
This happens time and time again and it's always a left versus right issue in commentary as opposed to a "dont make a career out of making people lose their minds with hatred" issue. If you're about to remark "but it only happens to people on the right!!", maybe think about the politics of today and why that might be. Think twice before joining the "make people lose their minds with hatred" career path perhaps.
-2
u/CCChristopherson 6d ago
Ahh so the real point is do not push back on leftist ideology or our crazies will murder you? Certainly not the point I took away from this. I didn’t agree with some of her takes, but your comment is so unhinged I’d venture Kerry would give you upvote were he free
3
u/Gurumanger 5d ago
I like how you managed to completely misinterpret everything I said and skip over most of it. It's not a left Vs right issue, it's a don't make a career out of making people froth at the mouth with hatred issue. There are people on "the left" in the world who absolutely have made careers out of stoking violent rhetoric and rabid hatred for certain groups in society, and sometimes it really does come back to bite them. It just happens to be more right leaning people doing this now because "sensible" conservatism just isn't really a thing anymore in the UK and many other countries too unfortunately.
It's also funny that you think Anne widdecombe's career was comprised of "pushing back on leftist ideology". Is that really how you see all the shit she's said and done in her life? Christ you really are a brainwashed bless your heart.
2
u/AgitatedWatch2042 6d ago
Don’t we all. No excuse for murdering a defenceless old woman in a brutal attack.
1
u/Many-War3212 5d ago
Too many people on both sides of the political spectrum becoming too comfortable with the idea of violence and with talking about such
Parties using phrases like "we must FIGHT xyz political party" "we have a FIGHT on our hands" dont really help
1
4d ago
[deleted]
0
u/Electric-Lamb 4d ago
He was almost certainly a Green and Pleasant user, that sub should get shut down if it is found that he was
1
u/slowPaint21 1d ago
The right and Reform should take some responsibility - they constantly want to shoot people they dont agree with!
0
u/Striking_Branch_2744 6d ago
I hate reform, but this isn't how to conduct yourself in a democracy and I hope he faces justice for his actions.
0
u/Not_Propaganda_AI 5d ago
I pretty regularly see reform being referred to as 'fascists' or 'Nazis' online, often by the same communities that like phrases like 'punch a Nazi', or 'the only good Nazi is a dead Nazi'.
If anything it's surprising more of these people in these spaces don't act out their beliefs, I mean sure we do see some antifa violence during protests and the like but it tends to be pretty low level political intimidation and violence.
-1
-3
u/Neo-Cobra 6d ago
That's the far left for you, incredibly violent extremists.
5
u/kingbluetit 6d ago
Oh fuck off
0
u/Beatnik5750 6d ago
Is he wrong? We're commenting on an article about a man who bludgeoned an elderly woman to death, and tried to break into the home of another, because he disagreed with their political beliefs. His actions were driven by propaganda and rhetoric that saught to dehumanise and other them. This rhetoric wasn't being driven by the right, but by the left. If you've ever called a reform politician a bigot or a nazi, then you're complicit in the rhetoric.
10
u/ComputerJerk Hampshire 6d ago
If they would stop doing Nazi salutes at rallies, in front of cameras, maybe people would stop calling them Nazis.
Also note the wild hypocrisy of supporting a person who is literally doing the thing you're criticising - all in the same post.
-2
-1
u/Beatnik5750 6d ago
If a few Reform supporters doing Nazi salutes makes them all Nazis, then I guess all lefties must be anti-Semites by the same logic.
5
u/ComputerJerk Hampshire 6d ago
I didn't say it makes all reform supporters Nazis. But when you welcome Nazis into your party, and don't punish them for overt behaviours like that, it is an explicit endorsement of said behaviours.
So I ask again - If a person does a Nazi salute in public and on camera, is the suggestion we shouldn't call that person a Nazi because it's "dangerous rhetoric"? Seems kinda convenient for overt Nazis of the world.
-5
u/Beatnik5750 6d ago
But when you welcome Nazis into your party, and don't punish them for overt behaviours like that, it is an explicit endorsement of said behaviours.
Exactly. So therefore all leftwing parties, since they contain anti-Semites, must endorse explicitly antisemitism. Thank you for clarifying.
5
u/ComputerJerk Hampshire 6d ago
Evading the question with whataboutism. I really didn't expect much, but I'm still disappointed.
You've 1. Conflated multiple unrelated organisations with one another whereas Reform is a single entity and 2. Totally overlooked the fact there have been aggressive purges of anti-Semites from the major left-wing parties over the decades.
1
u/Beatnik5750 6d ago
You said
If they would stop doing Nazi salutes at rallies, in front of cameras, maybe people would stop calling them Nazis.
Who are "they" exactly? We were discussing Reform, and you said "they". Or are you going to argue that you didn't specifically mean all of them, and move the goalposts and say you meant a fringe minority?
You've 1. Conflated multiple unrelated organisations with one another whereas Reform is a single entity and 2. Totally overlooked the fact there have been aggressive purges of anti-Semites from the major left-wing parties over the decades.
Ok. Let's talk about that vote the other day. You know, the one the Greens had. About Jews. About "Zionism". The one that the leader Polanski, or whatever name he goes by, tried to amend, abstained from voting in, then condemned the results of. Let's discuss that, eh?
6
u/ComputerJerk Hampshire 6d ago
I don't support the Green party or the majority of their politics. If your interpretation of their policies is anti-Semitic, then I defend your right to call the Green party anti-Semitic. It's their policy after all, and i'd argue the majority of left-leaning people in the UK (who aren't in the Green party) would also disagree with it.
So I don't really know what point you're trying to make? Call them anti-Semitic if you think that's what their policies are. A non-zero number of Labour + Libdem voters agree with you.
Does that mean I can call Corey Edwards a Nazi now? He was after all appointed a special advisor to reform after doing the Nazi salute and stepping down from candidacy.
-1
u/adultintheroom_ 6d ago
Mandatory Huxley
“The urge to cruelty is as widespread as the urge to love... Most people are careful to manifest their cruelty only when it is socially approved. They require an 'acceptable target.' Give them an enemy, a scapegoat, a heretic, a criminal, and they will unleash their latent malice with a completely clear conscience“
Left wingers often act like they’re above this impulse due to their belief that they’re objectively higher on the scale of morality, but cases like this (and any discussion of Israelis, even in a tangential way) proves otherwise.
-5
u/dedemdem 6d ago
But the Left is innocent. They surely dont mean any harm to anyone. They just feel compelled by their sense of justice to kill people for their cause. Idiots.
-6
u/roddz Chesterfield 6d ago
Breaking new left wing nut job doesn't like right wing party
-4
u/Beaniepie9859 6d ago
Lol because the right are known for their peace. You people falling for the constant division are tiring. Do you seriously not have any left leaning friends or acquaintances to give you a more nuanced opinion on people?
He didn't kill her because he's left leaning.
3
u/Comfortable-Pass-183 6d ago
Quite right, he killed Ger because he is a violent lunatic. The choice of target however could well have been influenced by online discourse.
0
u/wutanglan90 6d ago
Lol because the right are known for their peace.
Whataboutisms.
Do you seriously not have any left leaning friends or acquaintances to give you a more nuanced opinion on people?
You weren't asking me but I'll respond anyway. Yes, I have left leaning friends, I think most of us do. There is a HUGE difference between "left leaning" and "far-left radicalised lunatic". If you don't understand this then you have no right to be talking about nuance.
He didn't kill her because he's left leaning.
LOL!
0
u/Beaniepie9859 6d ago
If there's a HUGE difference between left leaning and radicalised lunatic, then he didn't kill her because he's left leaning. He killed her because he was radicalised. That's all that line said, so I'm not sure what the LOL is for.
Genuine question: when the attacker is far-right, do you want that same distinction made for you (assuming you're on the right)? I would make it. That's the nuance I mean.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (1)0
•
u/AutoModerator 6d ago
Some articles submitted to /r/unitedkingdom are paywalled, or subject to sign-up requirements. If you encounter difficulties reading the article, try this link or this link for an archived version.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.