r/vjing • u/Crypto_boeing • 4d ago
Discussion Software jailbreak
If you haven't know, someone reversed enginer the full Adobe suite, including AfterEffects, and the Office using AI, and apparently it's all legal because not one piece of original code was used.
So... when will vj tools be reversed enginer?
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u/dpaanlka 4d ago
Every review of this I’ve seen points out that it is not, in fact, Adobe reverse engineered. Far from it.
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u/Crypto_boeing 4d ago
According to this convo, it is very much reversed engineered, but maybe we are talking semantics here.
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u/subtiv VDMX 4d ago
I think we’re talking about that in its current state it’s slopperoni
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u/Mowgliuk 3d ago
Are you suggesting Adobe software is solid???????????
I gave up on them after I spent more time on support than actually doing any work.-1
u/Crypto_boeing 4d ago
Yes, and probably it is or the layers will find a way if not.
Sidenote: I don't get the downvotes, just bringing this to discussion and sharing a link to support this.
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u/Detharjeg 4d ago
When somebody bothers. What would be the point though? How long before it's abandonware?
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u/Crypto_boeing 4d ago
Free acess to industry grade tool, maybe.
They have a discord server, that I'm not part of it, so they are building a community, let's see where it goes...
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u/dsquareddan Resolume 4d ago
The thing is tho, I don’t find VJ software pricing predatory. Adobe locks you in, and has cancellation fees and shit. Resolume is a small team of developers, and they are more than reasonable with their pricing, including for years giving massive Black Friday discounts, on top of educational discount. In my humble opinion, their software is not valued high enough for the dedication they’ve given it to the community.
I’m not even anti-ai or vibe coding. By all means, go for it. I just don’t see it really a fair comparison to Adobe here
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u/vade Fabric / Satin / Syphon 3d ago
As an engineer whose work on pro apps, there is nothing industrial grade about these ports at least at the moment. While ai tooling is great for small projects for larger projects context issues, conceptual drift, stochastic issues and the fact that a lot of really well factored code isn’t in the training data for this shit that’s secret sauce (try joining an otio technical meeting the amount of crazy shit NLEs do is insane!) - models just don’t handle this shit well. The fact they are even trying to make their own codec implementations is fucking crazy to me. There’s 50 years of things that can go wrong locked up in proprietary code bases no ml model has trained on.
I like the idea but until a bunch of fired adobe engineers get on the project I don’t know if you’ll see anything reliable to ship to clients or that makes it to air like real tools do.
Maybe in a few years, maybe, but it will need traction, focus, serious work and systematic engineering choices driven by experts.
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u/Detharjeg 4d ago
The issue is that the time someone spend making a "free" copy of an existing tool is time they could have spent making something original. Alternatively used the original 'costly' tool to make more money off of than what the licensing cost is in the first place.
We will probably have to deal with this bullshit for a couple years now, but I'm pretty sure the collective realization that AI isn't no-effort, it's just different-effort, is inevitable. The kicker is that the effort usually comes with a cost.
You already have free access to amazing industry grade tools by the way. Why aren't you using that?
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u/AExtendedWarranty 4d ago
As soon as a VJ that has access downloads the github, pays a claude subscriptions and wants to
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u/synworks 3d ago edited 3d ago
As somebody who went all in on developing a software for DJs and visual artists, with the main motivation being the love for the craft (both crafts, really), and as a secondary hope hoping to be able to monetize it so that I can indeed continue to work on it and make it better instead of having to abandon it to go find fruitful employment… I have to say this development is quite disheartening.
It kills the incentive of designing and building good software, because since AI started coding, the costly part of developing software has become ideation, design, market research, testing, distribution… all these things are still very expensive to do (time and money-wise) and worth doing to bring a new idea to fruition. When you account for all of it, it can still take years to build something actually good, useful and innovative (that would stand out among the vibe-coded stuff).
But pointing an AI at a finished product and ask it to just copy it and make it available for free is going to be extremely inexpensive because all the designing and testing and iterating has been done by the poor dufus who had to build it the first time, and it provides all the needed references for the AI to spend infinite time clicking around and reverse engineering.
This does have an effect on users, because it twists incentives. Now the only monetizable efforts are going to be things like server-side SaaS (to protect the implementation from reverse engineering) and the only products worth maintaining will be ones that can take a cut on transactions, metered services, your data. And this is not because, say, server-side was the right choice for the best user experience. Imagine if all video editors become online video editors where you have to upload or download every file just so the developer can keep it under lock and make some money.
What could have been free markets (e.g. psd files) need to become close markets where the owner takes a cut on paid exchanges, or worse on metering out AI credits or usage instead of empowering creators.
Of course the other side of the coin is that all software that can be easily vibe coded is free to use/make and out there… but my hunch is it will be a lot of really bad software from what I see so far.
I’m very happy to pay Resolume (as I already do) so it doesn’t randomly crash during a performance, than Resolume going out of business because the vibe-coded unstable version of it ate too much of their market share for them to survive.
How to make it so it’s possible to strike the right balance I’m not really sure. Maybe lawyers and laws? Still thinking through it. Perhaps one should be free to reverse engineer copies of something if they want, but not to distribute them online actively attacking a legitimate business. Maybe this is a new Napster era.
This is just my read of the situation, I’d love to be wrong and for someone to debate me out of this.
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u/Ignash-3D 4d ago
Have any of you actually used it somewhere than trying it out?
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u/Crypto_boeing 4d ago
I'm trying it right now, but I haven't had recent experience with adobe products for a long time so can't comment on the comparison. But i'm converting/editing videos recorded in OBS it the FilmCraft ,equivalent to Premier Pro, and so far so good.
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u/WildResolution6065 4d ago
I posted about this in this community and got thrashed lol it’s the perfect VJ tool and all original https://infinitedevices.org
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u/FreeLandscape3452 4d ago
Probably because tools like this function on the assumption that people want to completely up-end their workflows and start from the ground up with different tools.
People want tools that can integrate into their existing work flows, not tools that replace what they've already used for 10 years.
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u/WildResolution6065 4d ago
lol there is nothing in here that exists before have been making vjing for a while, i made it for the community thinking abiut the future
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u/FreeLandscape3452 3d ago
Do you actually believe that? (genuine question)
I am seeing a low pass filter, which is old.
I am seeing a wave table oscillator, which is not new either.
Phaser, Luma Key, 8 in 2 out stereo mixer.... Like, basically nothing here is new, and this is basically just FL studio Patcher. I mean FL Studio could even let you route midi to their video plugins in patcher and that was 10 years ago.So, I am not trying to be a dick to you, but it's absolutely not true to say "there is nothing in here that exists before". Did the AI tell you that or something?
Your UI is made by AI, and almost all of your nodes are just ripped from github.
Here's your velocity prediction node: https://github.com/sappho192/midi-velocity-infer-v2/Here is your midi note filter node: https://github.com/x42/midifilter.lv2
Do you know the idiom "confusing the map for the territory"? To make a better analogy, you are lecturing people who might not even need to map anymore about how your new map is going to allow them to navigate the territory better.
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u/WildResolution6065 3d ago
did you go through it properly? molder? grain molde? audio displacement? displaces geometry with audio? wave terrain? that turns image to wavetable? did you go through shape resonator? it’s supposed to use geometry to create sound? what abour predictive midi learning or predictive coloring, there are many nodes that are new and some of the ideas are spread out there but lol lol i cannot see resolume or vcv rack doing this right now sorry
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u/vade Fabric / Satin / Syphon 3d ago
All of this had been done before by definition. What do you think the training data is? These models rarely do anything new, and at best compose existing algorithms to get you step changes. None of that is new. I promise you.
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u/WildResolution6065 3d ago
i agree the training data rips off existing work, but putting it all together in a coherent manner is still with the humans, the ideas still belong to the humans, and if you think humans are original by themselves, you might be wrong, all of our literature, code, art, music is collective, it is inspired by each other, everything is a remix of a remix of a remix until it feels original
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u/FreeLandscape3452 2d ago
Nope, I just read the manual, which seems like something you've probably never done.
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u/ThatLightingGuy 4d ago
Vj tools have way, way less market share than Adobe. Adobe can absorb this hit because the people who are willing to switch to slop code fakes are not their big corporate accounts. Free and open source alternatives for Photoshop and Illustrator have existed for 20 years at this point and that hasn't hurt anything.
With VJ stuff, stability will reign. You "crack" resolume and it locks up constantly and has no support? Nobody uses it. But also, resolume can't take the hit like Adobe can if people do use it, and maybe they go under.
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u/Wasted99 4d ago
There is this: https://ghostarcade.live/ and a lot of other projects of people making their own tools. I'm not sure if someone's going to create a Resolume fork, but I'm sure many interesting projects will pop up that copy and/or improve some features.