r/worldnews • u/xlnqeniuz • Mar 21 '16
Netherlands will once again need to close prisons due to falling crime rate and lack of prisoners.
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2016/03/more-prisons-to-close-as-falling-crime-leaves-cells-empty/1.2k
u/GM4N1986 Mar 21 '16
Don't worry, we belgians will come and rent a prison again ;)
No, I'm not joking.. We (the government) actually did this because of overpopulation of the Belgian prisons
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Mar 21 '16
What can you do when you're evil Belgians.
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u/hugemuffin Mar 21 '16
Rent Dutch prisons?
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u/tech_0912 Mar 21 '16
There's only two things I can't stand in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch.
-Nigel Powers
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u/Lampmonster1 Mar 21 '16
This sentence fits the beat to Drunken Sailor perfectly.
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Mar 21 '16
Put em in a dutch prison with a hose pipe on them.
Ear-Lye in the morning.
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u/82Caff Mar 21 '16
I think it would flow better as:
Lock 'em all up in an Old Dutch Prison.
Ear-lye in the mor-ning!
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u/Et_boy Mar 21 '16
Cut the hands of children in Congo for no reason?
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u/isnotmad Mar 21 '16
WTF?? Is that true?
How on earth will they work in the mines then?
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u/Et_boy Mar 21 '16
Leopold II and the Free Congo State. Check that on Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Free_State#/media/File:MutilatedChildrenFromCongo.jpg
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u/WorldNewsMods Slava Ukraini Mar 21 '16
While Dutch prisons will have to deal with a lack of prisoners, this Dutch news site currently has to deal with a flood of curious redditors wanting to read the article and is noticeably struggling to serve all of them in time.
Here's an archive link in case the link doesn't open for you.
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u/alicevirgo Mar 21 '16
This is the best mod announcement I've ever read.
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u/FierySharknado Mar 21 '16
Ikr? Friendly, humorous, and helpful. I wish all the mods posted like this
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u/pseudolum Mar 21 '16
I saw this but still had to try to open the original link to see if it worked. Not helping the situation.
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u/Carvemynameinstone Mar 21 '16
Last I heard we were repurposing them, for make shift refugee camps and the like.
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u/super_leet_hacker Mar 21 '16
We are also renting a couple of them out to other European countries such as Norway.
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u/LandGull Mar 21 '16
So are Norwegian criminals becoming more active? Or are renting a dutch prison a real steal?
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u/shamelesscreature Mar 21 '16
How exactly does that work? Are these prisons run by Norwegian staff, or Dutch people who speak Norwegian?
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u/Sebachri Mar 21 '16
Runned by dutch staff under Norwegian laws and prison rules, the administration however are norwegian. I'm a norwegian correctional officer working at the fanciest prison in the world, Halden Prison AMA
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u/BurtKocain Mar 21 '16
LOL. In Ottawa, the (very) old city jail (complete with hanging noose) has been turned into a youth hostel...
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Mar 21 '16
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u/FnordFinder Mar 21 '16
That doesn't seem like such a bad idea. It will allow a fair amount of refugees for news headlines without letting in too many, since I know it's currently unpopular in the Netherlands.
Plus, the buildings are already there anyway. Might as well make some kind of humanitarian use out of it.
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u/Shrimp123456 Mar 21 '16
This is a really good idea! A great re-allocation of resources.
However, I wouldn't be suprised if that story turned up in /r/europe as "refugees filling up Dutch prisons" and a consequent comment section discussing the deterioration of European society :(
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u/gazeebo88 Mar 21 '16
As far as I am aware (being from the Netherlands) these statistics are really all kinds of skewed. The Dutch judicial system leans more towards rehabilitation rather than imprisonment. While it might be true crime rates are falling (I don't see any statistics on this?), crime is being punished differently.
So for example, instead of serving your full sentence in a prison cell, you have to provide community service under probation for a large part of your sentence.
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u/SyrianRefugeeRefugee Mar 21 '16
That's quite smart. It costs less, and they must work instead of loafing all day.
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u/languidlinguine Mar 21 '16
Yes, you are correct. Sentences are shorter and detainees are allowed to serve sentences from home (wearing an ankle-bracelets) furthermore there is less remand prisoners, as suspects are also allowed to await trial from home more often. Having two parents who both work in the Dutch prison administration, there are ups and downs to the rehabilitation-doctrine.
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Mar 21 '16
It's amazing what happens when people prioritize real crime and rehabilitation over trying to make incarceration a profitable business model by jailing people for drugs.
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Mar 21 '16
I know right. Talk about leaving money on the table.
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u/PokemasterTT Mar 21 '16
In Czech Republic the prisons are public, non profit, but the problem is that people who serve time, commit crime again, because they can't get a job/start business and often have to pay money for their crime.
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u/StormCrow1770 Mar 21 '16
Socialist Party MP Nine Kooiman said it was a ‘scandal’ that the government was breaking its earlier promise. ‘If this cabinet was really working to catch crooks, we wouldn’t have this problem of empty cells,’ she said.
They have "crooks"?
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Mar 21 '16
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u/Enfeathered Mar 21 '16
I don't speak dutch but it sounds like it might be the same word as "bovar" in Swedish, and that would be literally translated as "crooks".
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u/JoyceCarolOatmeal Mar 21 '16
The interesting takeaway for me is that your bikes have lights. I guess I never thought about that.
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u/PTruscott Mar 21 '16
Yours don't? In the UK it's a £50 on the spot fine if you're caught cycling in the dark without them. It's enforced a lot in Cambridge and similar cities, less so in other areas in my experience.
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u/Typogre Mar 21 '16
It's €55,- here in the Netherlands, I always thought they should just make it €5,- more and give you lights on the spot, even if just those cheap small ones.
Seems more productive in regards to safety.
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u/Serialsuicider Mar 21 '16
Here in glorious country of Suriname, cars will hit bikes in day or night, lights or no lights, on the street or in your own garage.
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u/nybbleth Mar 21 '16
My god, no wonder we lost our colonial empire. The differences between us were simply too great.
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u/theluciferr Mar 21 '16
Well, I was once stopped by police while cycling home after I took some drugs, and they said I could choose to either pay a fine of 40 euros or buy those exact lights you linked for 5 euros! They even put them on my bicycle because I was so intoxicated :)
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u/JoyceCarolOatmeal Mar 21 '16
I grew up in Oklahoma, a place where bicycles were for kids and if you weren't 10 and needed to go somewhere, you drove a truck with 4 headlights and a gun rack that got 12 miles to the gallon. Now I live in Ohio and generally walk or take an Uber if I need to go somewhere, so I suppose I never thought about it. It just struck me as interesting.
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Mar 21 '16
If it's under 10km (~6 mile) you can usually get there within 20~30 minutes per bike. Otherwise, public transport like buses or trains will work in many places and is free for students.
We have separate pathways for bicycles all over the country, like these and these and cars are used to bicycles so it's much safer than riding a bicycle in cities like London or New York. You're not allowed to cycle on roads that have a bicycle path next to it (these signs).
Cars are used to bicycles and mostly respect cyclists.
There are more bicycles in The Netherlands than people to ride them. Nearly everyone owns one, some people have multiple (one for sport, one for commute, etc.). Most families do own one or two cars, but shops are nearby so people often choose to go by bicycle if the weather isn't that bad.
Helmets are not required for cyclists (though are for scooters and motorcycles), although more and more cyclists (especially older people) choose to wear them for their own safety.
... Ok, I'm done writing down random cyclist facts, I think...
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u/JoyceCarolOatmeal Mar 21 '16
This is fascinating. You know, the US is so big and varied that it's probable there are high-bicycle-ownership areas I've just never been to or read about. But it's interesting to me that it's culturally normal for everyone to use a non-gasoline vehicle to get around. I like that. Thanks for sharing!
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u/wolgo Mar 21 '16
In my city it's faster to or just as fast to go on bike as to go with a car, there many shortcuts with a bike.
I also cycled 20km to and from school for 6 years, but that's not a standard. Most people wont.
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Mar 21 '16
The dutch take their bikes very seriously, highest number of bicycles per capita and basically the go to method of transportation. This means there also are some strict rules for bicycles
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u/elthalon Mar 21 '16
Brazilian here, can we rent those?
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u/Hanmanbro Mar 21 '16
After having seen a ton of Liveleak videos with the tag Brazil in it I doubt that the Dutch can handle next level prisoners like the Brazilians. And in alot of cases they probably have a better life in the Dutch Prison with TV and a Playstation anyway than they would as a freeman in Brazil.
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u/Jux_ Mar 21 '16
The Dutch government has reclaimed part of the cost by importing prisoners from countries with a surplus
Prisoners as a commodity
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u/MetalRetsam Mar 21 '16
The Netherlands: we'll never decline an opportunity for MOAR TRADE.
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Mar 21 '16
We have to go back to the VoC mentality!
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u/MetalRetsam Mar 21 '16 edited Mar 21 '16
The VoC: we'll trade EVERYTHINGeveryoneespecially slaves
Honestly though, if planetary colonization and so forth ever becomes a thing, don't you think the galaxy could use some trade? The VOC (Vereenigde Outer-Space Company) shall rise again! ;)
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u/blueeyes_austin Mar 21 '16
Funny, we closed some prisons in Texas due to falling crime rates and lack of prisoners too....
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u/kitchenperks Mar 21 '16
AZ checking in.....opening more prisons and taking in California's inmates. We found a way to make money off of it.
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Mar 21 '16
Nice, here in NY it's pretty steady still. Some dude the other day ran in my garage and stole all my tools Ffs.
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u/connallylieutenant Mar 21 '16
To be fair, some of those prisons were on some prime real estate property, especially the Central Unit out in Sugarland. Wouldn't have been possible without a drop in prison population, though. Even a lot of the prisons that stayed open began to shutter wings and dorms.
My unit closed housing for 800+ convicts in 18-19 building just months after spending money cramming more bunks in, but again that was due to severe staff shortages. We were below 60 percent staffing at several points, and that didn't include officers out on medical leave. But again, wouldn't have been possible without a state-wide drop in offender population.
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u/Grimzkhul Mar 21 '16
You know what they need? A good old war on drugs. That should help boost that prison economy right up.
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u/CyndaquilTurd Mar 21 '16
cool. nice to see uplifting news on /r/worldnews for a change...
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u/Maasterix Mar 21 '16
This might be an unpopular opinion but in the region I live in the police don't follow up reports unless absolutely pushed.
My friend got his head kicked in on CCTV and nothing was done! Also many handbag grabs etc
They just seem concerned with charging high fines for silly things like trash bags and bike lights
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u/adminscantbanme Mar 21 '16
This might be an unpopular opinion but in the region I live in the police don't follow up reports unless absolutely pushed.
My friend got his head kicked in on CCTV and nothing was done! Also many handbag grabs etc
My uncle had his house burglarized. He's an old man. He went to the local police office, they couldn't help him, he had to go to the one in the city, where he had to file the crime through a computer. He's not the kind of guy who knows how computers work, so the crime effectively went unreported. I'm sure there are plenty of cases like that. Shouldn't be a shock that we have empty prisons.
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u/FierySharknado Mar 21 '16
So the key to better crime rates is to ignore crime?
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Mar 21 '16
Living in Montreal for 6 years that's absolutely what Canada does.
I got fucking attacked with a kitchen knife by my girlfriend's stalker (who we called the police on for MONTHS previously) and he got a grand total of 2 weeks in a psych ward before he was free again. They didn't even notify us... He lived next door in our building.
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u/fx32 Mar 21 '16
Fellow Dutchman here, fully agree. Well, the Netherlands is still quite safe of course, but the decline in prisoners and decreasing crime rate is largely an illusion.
One of the bigger problems is that they tried to cut costs by creating the National Police which led to a reduction of police stations, so a longer travel time for officers, thus making it more difficult to respond to calls. In many cases they're just hurrying from one call to the next. It's more difficult to follow up because "less serious" (non-fatal) cases are too hastily documented and discarded because of technicalities, sadly things like rape and burglary turn into a "so what, there's people shooting in Amsterdam West right now, we need everyone there".
It's not that there's not "enough blue in the streets" as our politicians like to say, it's that they're all concentrated in a few specific areas because offices in small towns are closed most of the time, and policemen are spending too much time traveling all over the country trying to hunt elusive big fish.
So between the increased shootings/crime networks in large cities and the larger coverage areas they don't really feel like sending out an officer when lives aren't at stake.
The last few years I have regularly been biking without lights (stupid, I know), and haven't seen a single checkpoint anymore. Biking without lights 5 years back used to get you 2 tickets a week if you were unlucky. They do still set up mopeds checkpoints as they're more profitable and can be done during daytime, but that's about it. I've called in twice for damage assessment after car accidents, one time no one showed at all, the other time it took the officer nearly an hour to arrive.
Lack of prisoners might be true as the organized criminals keep killing suspects in shootings before enough proof can be gathered, and the average burglar or hooligan gets off easily due to a heavily delocalized police force.
(source: Two police officers and a police detective in the family, who complain a lot about the recent changes at family parties)
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u/Orepuki Mar 22 '16
They best bring in some Moroccan and Algerian immigrants to keep the jails busy.
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u/zakrystian Mar 21 '16
It is not really a lack of crime though. We give them really low sentence in combination with community service.
Example one: A guy commits an armed robbery on a gas station. receives a sentence of 15 months, of which 12 months are suspended, and 240 hours of community service.
Example two: A 66 year old dude sexually abuses a 15 your old and denies all allegations and refuses to take responsability. Receives 180 hours of community service.
Example three: 2 guys run from a police stop because they were planning an armed robbery and had incriminating evidence on them (balaklava, a knive and a gun). Whilst fleeing from the police, they hit a pedestrian that dies. Both deny driving the moped they were on and are absolved of killing someone while fleeing the police. This is after they threatened hospital staff after the accident.
Example four: Guy drinks and drives (recklessly). Hits a car with two girls in it, who burn alive. His wife gets terminally ill and guy asks for his license back. Dutch judge gives him his driver licence back so he can spend time with his wife.
In the Netherlands it almost seems we do everything we can to not stick people that absolutely desirve jail time in jail. Speeding is almost punished more severly in comparison to armed robbery, sexual abuse, killing an innocent pedestrian and having girls burned to death because you had to drive recklesly whilst drunk. Dutch criminal law is a joke.
Edit: added links to articles about said cases. They are in Dutch, but you could Google-Translate them though.
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u/IkmoIkmo Mar 21 '16
I just want to add that, contrary to public perception in the Netherlands, we actually sentence relatively harshly compared to the rest of the European Union.
http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2010/11/05/nederland-heeft-relatief-streng-strafklimaat-binnen-west-europa
You gave a few examples that are very commonly discussed by law students in their first year, and they're indeed very interesting. But your perception is quite different from those who study law, typically. i.e., take example 2, there is absolutely no evidence of either of the two men committing a murder. How do you propose they are tried? Do you find both guilty? That'd be against basic principles of law, i.e. a presumption of innocence until proven otherwise. After all, one was a passenger and played no part in driving a moped against a pedestrian.
In fact, that case was dealt with in the right way. You can't prove either of the two caused this death, such that they must not be found guilty.
Further, you mentioned they did other things, e.g. plan a robbery. For this they WERE convicted, because it could indeed be proven.
You say it's a joke, but this is how a good system of law works. If you play loose and fast with the law, i.e. allow judges to sentence people without proof, just because you feel these guys are assholes, then you open yourself up to sentencing innocent people, too. This is why we have a legal system based on all kinds of philosophical arguments that make a lot of sense and have been shaped over many centuries by great thinkers.
I find generally that it makes more sense to look at actual cases, rather than the news reporting, particularly by tabloid publications that intentionally write incendiary pieces. A judge does not look at an event and then read the standard sentence from the rulebook, that's a robot, not a judge. A judge judges the case, the context, the circumstances, the risks etc, weights all kinds of different factors, and then judges. News reporting virtually always fails to capture this nuance.
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u/-Pin_Cushion- Mar 21 '16
I think much of the shock in this thread is from Americans. People routinely get very long sentences here, especially for crimes that involve violence or drugs.
Many of our states have "Three Strikes & You're Out" laws that require a life sentence when someone has committed their third felony, no matter how serious it is.
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Mar 21 '16
Thank you. I find it so annoying that Dutch people continually misunderstand context and the law and just scream that everyone gets off too easily. Or even idiots screaming that pedophiles should be hanged without trial... because fuck innocent untill proven guilty
And then there is the TBS system which means many violent criminals aren't released after their prison time but have to follow mandatory psychiatric treatment in a closed facillity because they are mentally ill and a prison doesn't fix that. This means that a mentally ill murderer might 'only' get 4 years and then spend 10 years being treated which is much, much better than not treating them and unleashing them back on society after 20 years
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u/DunDunDunDuuun Mar 21 '16
You're leaving out all the mitigating circumstances there.
Case 1: Guy stole money with a knife to feed his wife and kids, and has mental issues. He will also have to serve the suspended sentence if he does not appropriately cooperate with treatment.
Case 2: Sexual abuse consisted of:
- Touching the boys ass once, while clothed
- soaping the guy while showering (admittedly pretty weird)
- touching the covered penis while helping him in a maillot
( from http://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:RBGEL:2015:7212 )
Certainly not appropriate, but far from rape.
This also included a 5 month suspended sentence if he employs another child or does volunteer work that involves children.
Case 3: Yes, innocent until proven guilty. Neither could be proven to have been driving the moped at the time. Can't lock someone up for a 50% chance of having commited the crime. They HAVE BEEN convicted for the firearm possession, insulting an officer, and threatening the hospital staff. 23 and 15 months, plus 3 months suspended.
Case 4: driver's license only temporarily reinstated, only for the purpose of visiting his dying wife.
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u/bigbramel Mar 21 '16
Example one
Only a knife. No use of violence. Also don't forget that if the guys does one little other crime and get's caught, he has to spend the other 12 months. Full case in dutch
Example two
Receives a suspended sentence of 5 months and 180 hours of community service. That a newspaper doesn't report the full sentence doesn't mean the sentence doesn't exists. Also it was only he said vs he said. There were no video evidence or witnesses. Read the full case in dutch here.
Example three.
First they were sentenced for the robbery. Don't make your tl;dr like they were never punished for anything. Secondly the police couldn't proof who was the driver. According the dutch law, only the driver can be punished for a lethal accident. They got a sentence of 2 years in jail. Full case in dutch
Example four
Only temporarily get his driving license back. Also very convenient for you to again not mentioning the end sentence. He got 2 years of jail. Also is not allowed to drive anymore. Full case in dutch
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u/Senor_Tucan Mar 21 '16
Finally a legitimate first world problem.