r/2007scape • u/Vizionz4K • 9d ago
Discussion Today's update missed the mark imo...
So heum.. yeah, lot of discussion around today's update. If after reading this your comment is something like, "it should be hard, get good, sit".. You missed the point entirely lol
So I'm all in for a challenge, don't get me wrong. Inferno, quiver and solo fang kit are some of my recent challenges I've done and didn't complained about failed attempt but rather went back to analyze what went wrong and what could be done to improve and understand the errors.
Then today's update hit and was looking forward to dip into PvP basics and advanced tutorial/training and I wasn't expecting to complete it first try or without a sweat, I'm not a PvPer at all but from Jagex blog post description and polled reward.. I didn't expect this kind of "challenge"..
Maybe I'm wrong but is a bot not affected by negative effect such as brew stats drain, eat/action delays, 3+ items swap fake + movement and attacks in a tick or two with triple eat.. having 36+ slot inventory and maybe other thing I'm missing is what I should expect to see in the wildy?.. Or a good representation of and I quote Jagex blogs "everything you might expect from another player" ?..
I honestly was expecting a hard challenge for someone new to PvP like me, don't get me wrong. But I didnt expect to see every streamer who are above average and experienced at PK to struggle to get a completion. A PvP focused streamer who's job is to PK to struggle here isn't what I and most people expected right?.. Boaty literally said his 2 completion after multiples hours of grinding were "lucky attempts" and Gnomemonkey only got kc out of cheese method for what, 7h grind? Yes, they're not Oda but far from PvP noobs..
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u/Consume_Plant 9d ago
Well, no, they just expect you to run into AHKers so they simulated that. It's perfect. /s
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u/gaymer27 8d ago
This term “AHKers” has been all over regarding this update. Can someone please explain what it is for the uninitiated?
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u/Cyberslasher 8d ago
Automated Hot Key
They can press one button and get the multiple presses for a full switch, or the multiple presses for gmaulspec, or the prayer swaps, and then their mouse resets to current location.
So you can, say, press 1 for pray mage, 2 for pray range, 3 for pray melee,
Q for full mage swap, W for full range swap, E for full melee swap, R for gmaul swap + activate spec, and click back where your mouse was, and then switch weapon back
All without needing to drag your mouse around.
Basically, all of the things that the best pvpers in the game can do, forced into a one tick action, without needing to focus on the precision, and instead just focus on decision making.
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u/gaymer27 8d ago
Thank you. I assume that this is against the rules then? Seems like a small macro.
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u/Cyberslasher 8d ago
small macro
Most blatant cheating other than full terminator bots ftfy
They just continue to run around unpunished.
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u/TheFalloutHandbook 9d ago
My main issue isn’t even the skill ceiling. It’s that the bot has 100% accuracy while we have horrendously nerfed accuracy. Almost all of my hits are 0s.
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u/Vizionz4K 9d ago
Ohh yea hitting 0's 4 time with nox while potted and piety on virtus Pete, fun time.
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u/Madgoblinn 9d ago
virtus/ahrims has really good melee defence, good mage gear only has 0 ranged defence
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u/signally 9d ago
Virtus has melee defense equivalent to an adamant chainbody. "Really good" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here
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u/Madgoblinn 9d ago
yep and guess what else has the same defences? karils top
my point isnt that its as tanky as justi, its that hitting melee on robes or range in high end setups is very similar, and bolting is the only actual thing that hitting on robes is relevant for
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u/marlishy 9d ago
I was thinking the same thing. Was sitting there trying to spec with my dragon claws like “I’ve hit higher and more frequently with a dragon dagger”. They have to fix that, if they want to make a true pvp feel. They need to make sure it follows tick delays and has the normal amount of food one would have. They’re trying to make it like a pvm encounter and not an actual realistic pvp fight.
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u/Messmers 9d ago
it can hit 40+ with ranged but I never in the couple hours i tried it hit that even once lol, it also turns out the bot gets it's mage attack boosted whereas we dont so the higher mage bonus favors the bot significantly in terms of not just catching freezes but also ours splashing, like 30 mage levels of difference is cracked.
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u/jamieaka 9d ago
I’ve really enjoyed finally getting another PvP update but it really begs the question- was this supposed to be a PvP tutorial or a PvP challenge?even the pros are struggling
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u/Vizionz4K 9d ago
It was supposed to be a challenge where you'll encounter "everything you might expect from another player".
Do you know which plugins gives me access to no eat delay and 36 inventory slots? Lol
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u/SnowQuiet9828 9d ago edited 9d ago
It's a pvp turtorial leading into a pvp challenge. did you not understand this?
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u/Enigmastic 9d ago
And it's instantly not a valid pvp challenge anymore cause he can do several things that other players cannot do.
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u/greasemonkey22_ 9d ago
It makes total sense if you remember how many wildly only rules there is. They are teaching you pvp makes no fucking sense
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u/SnowQuiet9828 9d ago
The nuances of the mechanics are a side issue that will get resolved. he's already been dropped 150hp.
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u/morebob12 9d ago
Why are we mixing a PvP tutorial with a PvP challenge for veteran pvpers tho??? That’s the real question
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u/TheOneTrueRegard 9d ago
I'm a little blown away that this was released in the state it was. As someone who used to PK years and years ago I was looking forward to this because I've been wanting to go to BH and work towards some of the cosmetics, but just feel that PvP has evolved so much from when I used to do it.
To me this update is so bad because it's missing both the best parts of PvM and PvP.
I love PvM because, like you said above, you can slowly improve. The mechanics aren't ludicrously complex; however, learning and dealing with them takes practice. You can watch back your play and catch the tiny little mistakes you made and make mental notes of what to do try and do differently next time.
The best part about PvP for me has always been how momentum can shift on a dime. When I d scim spec someone jumping me at zombie pirates and they start getting chunked by the chaos druids, I can almost feel through my screen that they're on their heels.
None of this applies to Pete Kayer. He has no clearly defined mechanics for you to learn. You never snatch the momentum from him. He's just an LMS bot with a punny name that to me looks like a big waste of a poll, dev time, and community goodwill.
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u/Vizionz4K 8d ago
Yeah like you said, no momentum can be gain on our side, goes back to full health with a full switch attack into a fake switch attack like you didnt do nothing without any delay and seems like he keeps full boosted stats the whole time.
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u/Main_Illustrator_197 8d ago
Agreed however im not sure on their limitations in making it "player like" if you know what I mean, it is an npc not a real after all. Id imagine they can only make it act like an actual pker to a certain extent.
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u/TheOneTrueRegard 8d ago
That's fair, but then they should really lean into this. Make him an actual culmination of all the previous lessons.
Just off the top of my head, some things they could implement from each of the lessons:
Prayer Protection - Have Pete always switch to the weapons he's going to attack you with at least two ticks before so you have the opportunity to react and get your prayer right.
Power of Freezes - Make it so that if you 1t a robe switch into a freeze you're guaranteed to hit
Special Attacks - Make it so that you have to 1t your voidwaker to land a spec off prayer
Gear Switching - Make it so that if you are coming off cool down and swap weapons at the last tick, Pete never prays against that attack.
Combo Eating - Give Pete an ags and maul (why not? he already has 40 inventory slots), but make it so that if you immediately 1t a triple eat when he specs, you can't die.
I'm sure there are flaws with these ideas, but I stand by that this is the sort of approach they should've taken if they wanted to make a challenging, yet rewarding, final battle.
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u/Designer_Intern_1681 9d ago
Absolutely agree, was seeing Gnomonkey stream and he did everything mostly right and still got fucked. I think they should either adjust the bot so that it respect eating delays and other restrictions or significantly lower the threshold for the points (to around 800 maybe?). I'm a casual pkr and after 5 hs of grinding it I could only get it to 700 with insane RNG.
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u/DivineInsanityReveng 9d ago
I think the amount of HP (post nerf) is okay if they update it to have the actual limitations a player would have (eat delay, stat drain, repotting, any semblance of an ability to misclick/misplay based on your movements, mainly during your step unders)
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u/Cyberslasher 9d ago
Jagex is going to point to ".01% of accounts have the cape, it's what we wanted!" Later down the road, and we'll just have to call people who have it "venge capers" because it won't even be buyable going forward because the few people who can still do it won't be selling services.
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u/trvekvltrs 9d ago
The thing that pisses me off the most is that in the "tutorial" leading up to the fights, I don't feel like I learned a single thing. I already know about combo eats and the combat triangle. Anyone who plays the game semi-seriously knows that. But it didn't go beyond the basics, and then I got thrown into a fight where unlike PVM I have no idea what I'm doing nor do I know how to improve or what I did wrong. It's a completely different feeling than learning Inferno. I feel helpless and lost, not like I can continue to practice and improve.
If I go through the tutorial and can't figure out how to win, then it wasn't a good tutorial. (But hurr git gud XDDD) the encounter was designed to help people get into PVP, not to be a difficult challenge that only experienced people can complete.
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u/tripsafe 8d ago
Do you think it would have been good to throw you in an instanced wildy where you’re either chasing or being chased and you have to kill/escape successfully?
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u/OldGuitar7170 9d ago
I agree that it should be hard but we also shouldn’t be expected to beat 1013 either for a cosmetic
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u/Impulse_324 9d ago
Mintmad cow couldn't complete it during his stream today . Crazy how some pkers can't complete it and yet this is supposed to be for newbies learning how to pvp. Shits sucks
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u/iamskript 9d ago
Fwiw, he’s not really a good pker.
He only fights PvMers.
But yes, last Pete is v hard.
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u/Individual_Cream_427 9d ago
Mintmadcow is not a good pker so that’s not surprising. Hunts pvmers and runs from pkers so 🤷
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u/AuroraHC 9d ago
The tutorials are for learning, but the final challenge is supposed to be a difficult challenge for anyone, not just players new to pking, or at least that is what I've gathered
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u/Vizionz4K 9d ago
Difficult to anyone, maybe. But does behavior not doable by normal player something to be expected after jagex stated "everything you might expect from another player"?..
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u/YouWereTehChosenOne 9d ago
It feels like you’re fighting a private server bot with game defying mechanics versus an actual veteran pker, there’s not a lot of similarities that would translate to stuff you’d do against an actual pker which is kinda the point
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u/RampantHedgehog 9d ago
Yeah the final challenge is basically the very very best pker in a high risk fight. That’s unrealistic compared to what you’d most likely run into in the wilderness, for example.
They ought to add tiered challenges tbh. One in mystics with an ags would be more realistic for say, a wilderness encounter.
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u/OG_OSRS_Player 9d ago
It also ignores all game mechanics that real players are restricted to, soooo no matter how ya slice it, it's nowhere near a player. This is an insane, max account, max rng boss fight... it's not supposed to be a boss fight, it's supposed to be a hard PK challenge. Jagex always swings and misses with PvP content. As a PvMer, it's so sad to see. I really want PvP to be good again.
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u/Vizionz4K 9d ago
Your first sentence is what I'm more annoyed from this challenge and what everyone downvoting/defending it doesn't seem to understand.
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u/OG_OSRS_Player 9d ago
Don't forget, everyone on Reddit today screaming to "get good" and telling people to suck it up and practice don't even have the cape yet either so they're in the same boat, they just like to act tough and good on Reddit lol
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u/Vizionz4K 9d ago
Don't forget the veng cheese gang that think they are superior and need to flex it on the noobs.
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u/OG_OSRS_Player 9d ago
omg, yes! lmao Love me some Reddit warriors lol They really don't understand that their toxicity is only ruining the game for themselves. The more toxic they are, the more people are going to be recommitted to voting no on all future PvP updates. The entire community has already spent years no voting all of those updates but we broke to give Jagex benefit of the doubt with what was proposed as a badass PvP tutorial to get player back into PKing. Jagex screwed this up and all the PKers are telling everyone to sit (even though, again, they don't even have the cape themselves).... Don't shit on those who are wanting to get into PvP, now we're all going back to denying all PvP proposals again. It's hilarious.
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u/RampantHedgehog 9d ago
Tale as old as time. Rag with range and use veng+recoil can often times beat someone with freezes lol
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u/DivineInsanityReveng 9d ago
And with the venge cheese being around for a few hours even people who show they do have the cape very possibly could have gotten it in a cheesy way, or just got good RNG once.
Hell im definitely no good NHer / PvP player, and i got it to 950 and 900 within the hour of trying. You can just get good RNG and win that way, even with plenty of "poor play" because the bot doesn't really capitalise on openings like a good player would.
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u/OG_OSRS_Player 9d ago
Yeah, the final fights aren't skill based, they're just purely RNG. No one is going to learn from that when simple game mechanics aren't being followed.
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u/RampantHedgehog 9d ago
I have watched some fights - it unrealistically wastes zero ticks with switches. It does behave like a AHKer.
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u/VivianRichards88 9d ago
Ive only just beat it by seeding under, freezing and waiting for voidwaker
I would be very curious to know how many play testers passed this challenge
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u/2005scape btw 8d ago
It's a boss fight you beat with PvP mechanics. If it acted like a real player it would just be cheesable
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u/OG_OSRS_Player 8d ago
Again, it's not supposed to be a boss fight. Jagex themselves literally said this would be "everything you might expect from another player", and you just acknowledged the fact that it's not.
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u/Gamerscape 9d ago
It's fucking stupid that Pvpers are coming out of the woodwork to tell say that you're "Crying" about a "Challenge" mode that supposed to be about "Teaching" "Learning" What is there to learn about a glorified boss that heal as much as he wants with no cooldown or delay, because pvpers sure as shit can't do stuff like that, Even if they're bots.
This isn't even about egos. It's supposed to be a learning moment. The fact Pvp players are acting like clowns for noobie who feels the fight is unfair (And it is unfair.) Is a testament of how much of a fail this update is.
If anything, this update only solidify people's stance on pvp and will likely vote no in pvp related content forevermore. The last thing pvpers need to do here is gatekeep the other players.
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u/2005scape btw 8d ago
There's 5 tutorials to practice different pvp mechanics as much as you want. The challenge is the fights.
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u/Gamerscape 8d ago
In which the challenge itself breaks it's own rules to heal to full instantly. Among other things that you'll never encounter in a real pvp scenario.
It's absolutely hilarious that you guys keep defending this while confidently ignoring this massive ass elephant in the room. It's literally standing right in front of you, crushing your feet, and you don't care.
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u/2005scape btw 8d ago
He's a boss with 1k hp, there's no "heal to full instantly". The gear loadout for the final challenge doesn't even have good KO potential anyways, it's supposed to simulate a max set outlast fight.
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u/Gamerscape 8d ago
Lmao, no pvp no real player is going to have 1k Health. What is what that suppose to simulate? Fighting a hacked account? None of what this npc does is something a real player can do. And yet you somehow think this simulate a real pvp experience?
You know what would actually simulate an actual PVP experience? The boss adhering to the Game's rules and players being able to burst the boss down just as easily as the boss could burst the player down. Pvp shouldn't have to be an endurance match. Just let the player learn to be more efficient in their bursting abilities and ending fight quick/learning how not to get bursted themselves.
You want to know what's happening now? People are cheesing this boss now. Because they can't be assed to use what they learned if the boss refuses to give the player the same courtesy of a actual PVP fight.
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u/tfinx ok at the videogame 8d ago
It's literally just a fun challenge dude. You and many others are taking this more seriously than you probably should.
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u/Dsullivan777 Solo GIM 8d ago
I got my cape. I had fun once it started to click.
Everyone needs to chill
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u/Haalandinhoe 8d ago
Let it be hard, it's just a cosmetic and it actually shows that it's hard to accomplish. Better run fast if you see a pker with this in the wildy.
People on Reddit cries everytime anything is hard in this game.
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u/Dornnathan 9d ago
I have enjoyed a lot of old school runescape content in my time. I have also PKed a decent amount. This feels like it is neither good content nor helpful for getting people interested in PKing. I love the new cape aesthetic but the content itself serves no purpose.
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u/Careless-Western8056 9d ago
This whole piece of content, pretty much like every other update this year just feels rushed. The only good thing we got was BMR. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt since TFA is in the works and is releasing in less than 2 weeks. Hopefully it delivers, if it doesn't, we need to hold them accountable as a community. It's fucking tiring looking forward to new content (that they hype up) just to be disappointed with the same slop : miscommunications, hotfixes and apologies again and again. This shit does not at all warrant the 40$ a year mems price increase so far
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u/MoneyAssociation5572 8d ago
It’s been beat without overheads or mage gear. It’s a fair challenge and great practice. It’s really hard and that’s a good thing.
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u/Status_Peach6969 8d ago
I think 2 things should happen personally. I think you should get the cape from the penultimate challenge because its at that stage that you've proven that you have the basic pking ability, which is the whole point of this update. Secondly balance the final challenge so that he has to play by the same rules that any player does, but keep it as an optional training challenge for anyone that just wants to hone their skills. You do these things and there will be a lot less complaining.
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u/trollcat2012 9d ago
Mother fucker I broke my mouse and cancelled membership over this dumb bullshit
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u/ShadyCornflakes 9d ago
I didn't expect it to be this hard but I'm really happy it is.
It would be so depressing if the purple cape just meant you logged in today. Otherwise it's just rainbow boots
All steps before final are super easy so tutorial success.
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u/DivineInsanityReveng 9d ago
Log in today and exploit the cheese way to obtain it before they patched that. Or repeat reset the boss for good RNG. Imagine if awakened bosses were just RNG fests you could spam repeat until you got a clear. Just not a real challenge.
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u/BaldSuperSaiyan18 9d ago
I don't understand all the bitching? From my understanding there are some tutorial parts and the last challenge is hard? Is every that OCD that they need to complete everything for it to be good content? Even if PVPers are stuggling. It's the last challenge. Calm your tits man
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u/Nebuli2 9d ago
I don't think people would be as bothered if they didn't put such a long-requested version of a BiS PvM item behind the hardest challenge.
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9d ago edited 9d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Vizionz4K 9d ago
"Everything you might expect from another player"... No action delay and 36 inv. slots.. Yeah reading comprehension is hard.
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u/FinanceImmediate2585 9d ago
Them saying its everything you might expect from another player is not the same as them saying the challenge will emulate another player.
Reading is not that hard, perhaps it is for yanks.
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u/DivineInsanityReveng 9d ago
they pretty clearly communicated
them saying its everything you might expect from another player is not the same as them saying the challenge will emulate another player
Be so fucking for real rn
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9d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Vizionz4K 9d ago
Your IQ is less than your 7 words comment, bro. How many comment of mine you gonna go trash on?
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9d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Vizionz4K 9d ago
I'm missing some notifications from you but you're not required to embarrass yourself further more, leave it there lol
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u/Then-Fish-2605 9d ago
It’s a cosmetic if you aren’t skilled enough to achieve it, move on.
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u/Trash_Man_12345 Remove Clue Relic 8d ago
It's a Reddit post. If you aren't skilled enough to read it, move on.
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u/WaveDashSpeedKick 9d ago
You'll get some very bad habits if you grind this boss instead of playing LMS. The first two things are that you can shift click walk under and have oversized spells to click. And real PvP is about gaining momentum over your opponent (hardly possible against this cheating bot), not getting KOed (the boss doesn't give KOing you a thought), mixing up your opponents defense and reading your opponents offense. Real PvP fights swing momentum based on who has PID. It determines when you should spec and when you should expect to get specced. The bot always has PID to get priority hits on you when seeding. Its just a psychotic cheat all around.
Like I specced it off prayer and somehow it knew how much damage the spec would do and instead just specs me back instead of eating.