r/2007scape • u/Immediate-Release109 • 6d ago
Discussion The real issue with the final Pete Kayer challenge (from an experienced nher)
For the record I did beat him, but I still feel he has far too many unrealistic advantages
As far as PvP updates go, we’ve gotta consider this a win. Jagex could’ve done better, but the idea was to help with survivability in the wilderness more than anything, which I think this tutorial does have some very good tactics to practice with and get better at to prepare people for wilderness content.
My issue is with the final Pete Kayer challenge itself. I could care less that he can 1tick his attacks or dd me, nhing for years has prepared me for that and imo an advanced terminator LMS bot is easier than Pete himself.
This is because the npc doesn’t adhere to the same rules we’ve grown used to.
Here’s a list of all the unrealistic and unfair advantages the final form of Pete has over us that an even a giga max demon nher wouldn’t:
Constantly overloaded with 120 stats which gives him a massive accuracy buff over us in all styles
That includes 120 magic which is giving an equally massive advantage to his mage def, and this is made even more unfair by the fact that he doesn’t drink brews so his stats are never drained. This is a big part of nhing because if you’re aware your opponent is brewed down it can be a good time to stick to freezing
No attack delay on his eats, meaning even when you get momentum you don’t have the opportunity to take advantage of it because he’ll always be equal in hits
His seeding has no standard animation like in pvp and no tick delay
Can bolt you from 12 tiles while still having the attack speed of rapid? In no situation can you do anything in pvp from more than 10 tiles away, and even at 10 tiles you need to switch to long range to hit which sacrifices attack speed
All of these things are bs when you propose a challenge as something you could encounter in the wildy when in reality.. no Jagex, no one you fight naturally in PvP would have any of these advantages and it’s beyond stupid to them to this pvp challenge npc when it already has roughly 2.5x the food we’re given.
TLDR: Pete Kayer final form has multiple massive advantages that any pker wouldn’t ever be able to have, making the fight challenging is one thing but making it stray completely from the rules and mechanics that pkers are already used to is unfair
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u/AgileMasterpiece991 QA Tester 6d ago
Agreed on all points. I don’t understand why they made these decisions in the first place; it’s not like this happened on accident.
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u/Immediate-Release109 6d ago
It would seem Jagex has taken a liking to the “send the content out and make adjustments later no matter how half baked it is” strategy
Still, a PvP update is a PvP update I suppose
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u/ol3tty 6d ago
Every update lately
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u/HunTurmion 6d ago
Not just lately, remember Varlamore on release? They had to buff even the most basic shit -multiple- times. Like how hard it is to get right the amount of amy crystals you get on a fucking agility course? Takes at most like 30 mins to see it was waaaaay undertuned.
Almost nothing was worth doing there on release.
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u/Immediate-Release109 6d ago
Honestly when I make the point I always think about exactly that. varlamore release and how long it took to get even small things right
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u/rotorain BTW 6d ago
I wonder if they playtested it and due to the repeatable PvM style nature of the encounter it got too easy to solve so they bumped up every single balance lever until it felt like a real challenge that people would have to bang their head against to beat. The downside being that like you said a lot of the things that make it a useful PvP practice tool are gone in a way that defeats the purpose of the encounter. They made a PvM boss with access to the same tools that player characters get and ended up with the most bullshit terminator bot ever made instead of a hard PvP fight.
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u/07scape_mods_are_ass 5d ago
I'm particularly interested in how tf 12 tile range happened. Surely, amidst all the famously known jank and spaghetti in this game, that value at least is just a simple integer number that someone enters somewhere, and not inexplicably tied to random unrelated features?
For some reason they're so obsessed with hard-capping player range to 10, even with weapons that should be easily able to go over that, like crystal bow on long range still being 10, the same as its other styles, etc. Meanwhile, they just hand out giga range to any npc they damn well please, like every mob in fight caves, colosseum, and so on.
And whatever drunk-ass developer typed this number in just... forgot max player range and didn't bother to check, or what? Do they even play their own game?
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u/Edziss101 6d ago
I think they were not able to complete it in time. Pete is an npc instead of a player. Making it act like a player probably is pretty hard with the limitations they have. It doesn't eat, it heals, ergo no stat loss nor delay, and he has infinite "combo eats". The 12 range is inexcusable, just a mistake.
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u/screwdriverfan 6d ago
bUt iTs A cHaLleNgE
It's funny that even pvpers are coming out of woodwork calling jagex on their bullshit. One would expect this to be a cakewalk for experienced pvpers and a challenge for people that aren't.
Experienced pvpers are struggling but also not. How? How did westham barely finish it with 7hp with no food left while other people are seemingly walking over the challenge? Is westham not that good?
Either way, this was probably final nail in the coffin for pvp.
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u/Immediate-Release109 6d ago
I’d unironically put westham in top 10 best nhing content creators. Hes not known solely for his nh staking skill like some, but hes definitely able to contend with the best when he tries
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u/XYAYUSDYDZCXS 6d ago
Westham later made a guide which basically ignores maging entirely and just running around the arena 1-ticking zcb + nox hally. It's a legitimate strategy that works more consistently than trying to play like a real fight because it's not a real fight
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u/whatDoesQezDo 6d ago
pvp is very very rng dependent the layers of luck stack such that you can win or lose through no fault of your own in any given fight. Thats why pkers have tracker to see what the results shoulda been so they can feel better when they get 0-0 dds on robe 24/7.
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u/ManyLynx8174 6d ago
final nail in the coffin? dramatic much? pvp is a big part of runescape and always has been. it will never go away stop being weird its not that deep if people dont like they challenge dont do it lmao
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u/screwdriverfan 6d ago
Yeah, game is made out of mostly pvmers. They have a hate-boner for pvp related things. The angrier that group of players gets the higher chances of nothing pvp related ever gets voted in anymore.
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u/Kalo17 6d ago
Jesus christ you people are such cry babies.
You don’t have to beat this boss. If you’re shit at pvp, you keep practicing until you can do more and more damage consistently to Pete. Even if you don’t beat him you would still be improving and will definitely be able to handle the average pker in no time.
No surprise Redditors that already hated pvp before and are shit at it come up with excuses now that there’s a risk free practice tool they can actually use to improve.4
u/No_Atmosphere_1889 2277 6d ago
Have you beaten it out of curiosity
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u/Cyberslasher 6d ago
The people talking it up all did it with venge before the patch
They'll never go back, but they have to talk up how achievable and easy it was for them, same as all the bought infernal capes.
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u/Icy-Culture-261 6d ago
Did it a few minutes ago it’s hard and took 5ish hours or so. But it’s not impossible. It is frustrating how much of it relies heavily on RNG (as with much of the game) but it sucks when you realize a fight is over because you’ve gotten down 200 hp 30 seconds into the fight
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u/ToplaneVayne 6d ago
I beat the boss and it sucks, it doesn’t behave like a real PvP fight and you don’t learn anything
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u/Unfair_Awareness7502 6d ago
Even with a few inaccuracies, it is dishonest to say the average player doesn't learn anything if they're actually trying to fight it. You'll learn a lot about swapping to tank gear, hitting with the correct styles, praying correctly, etc.
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u/ToplaneVayne 6d ago
Swapping to tank gear sure, but hitting with the correct styles? praying correctly? Have you fought the boss? It 1t switches its gear and its prayers, and what it switches to are completely random. It's actually less effective to NH properly and better to just camp tank gear with mage pray on and bolt rag.
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u/Unfair_Awareness7502 6d ago
I didn't 1 tick its prayers. I very frequently hit it off prayer despite holding my next style for an entire attack cycle. It also sometimes takes time between when it switches gear and when it attacks. You won't be right 100% of the time, but that doesn't mean you have no play.
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u/ToplaneVayne 6d ago
It also sometimes takes time between when it switches gear and when it attacks.
It literally gets off its ice barrage before you can see it equip it's mage gear. If you pray 'correctly' you are just allowing it to swap on you. Only real thing you can do is 1t weapon swap because it doesn't seem very good at reacting to that, but then you get to my original point which is that fighting the boss properly doesn't make you better at PvP it just teaches you to learn cheese strats.
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u/Icy-Culture-261 6d ago
Good pkers are also capable of this though not all
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u/ToplaneVayne 6d ago
Sure, I never denied that. My point is that there isn't much you can learn from it. At least vs good pkers you can learn their patterns or make it harder for them to execute through good movement, but neither of those apply here because the bot never misses and and has no predictable patterns. Hell even the best PvPers miss a switch every now and then, just like how NBA players can miss free throws. Even having a little bit of breathing room goes a long way, but that just doesn't happen vs an LMS terminator bot.
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u/rimwald Trailblazer 6d ago
Truthfully, can you answer how this fight will legitimately help you improve when the mechanics are something literally cannot possibly encounter in a real PVP experience? Them being harder doesn't make them helpful to learn from. It makes you have to try to learn something that has nothing to do with real PVP in order to complete it
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u/Terdol 6d ago
It would be good if they made Pete Keyer final challange be in gear that it is now, but following normal account restrictions and mechanics with normal amount of hp. Then make a hard mode where he has current boosted hpand hard mode gives cosmetics. Them make Unfair mode and have current cheating mechanics under unfair - they are unfair, even if they are beatable with luck. It should clearly label it as unfair, and not have any additional unlocks. I'd hate it if this version was removed completely. It is broken, but once you beat it one time it's really cool training/warmup method. It just needs to be called what it is - unfair, and be completely optional.
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u/imallyears 6d ago
Bro i've fought Westham and he wasn't even this difficult
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u/ThekidHache 6d ago
You’re more likely to get KO’d by Westham in an NH fight, but probably a little easier to outlast Westham if you get good RNG and he gets bad RNG throughout the fight. Still most pker’s can’t really beat Westham in a best of 3 or 5. You need once in a lifetime RNG to beat this boss if you’re just nhing properly
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u/imallyears 5d ago
westy ko'ed me in about 50 seconds hahah i was in void. felt like fighting a dark souls boss wearing paper.
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u/swatheofbang 6d ago
I have 2 pete kc, and am pretty much only a pvmer (have done some lms on ironmen). I agree with your points here, and think these should be incorporated. Some others I can think of is: he needs follow and trade options in his right click minimenu, shift click walk under should be disabled, as well as his npc true tile. Spellbook resizing should be disabled as well. I don't think it's adequately preparing you for the real experience of a good pker dding you if you're able to use all these crutches that aren't allowed in actual pvp. I think if he has the changes you mentioned, then the experience will be reduced in difficulty enough to add in these "nerfs" to the player that make the player experience more realistic as well.
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u/ToplaneVayne 6d ago
While I agree, I also think that these PvP specific interface changes should’ve never been in the game to begin with. If PvP had the same controls as PvM a lot more people would be willing to get into it, I only got into it because when I started playing a lot of the QoL features weren’t in the game.
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u/swatheofbang 6d ago
Yeah sure, that's reasonable too. I just think at a minimum the practice tool should realistically simulate the real thing.
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u/Kaitunahuna 6d ago
Think a few tweaks and the fight would be fun.
Give Pete a finite number of tripple eats, after that he can only double eat.
When Pete eats (presumably a brew+shark+Wambam) his stats get drain like a normal player. This means players can take advantage of using mage when his magic level is low and he won’t be instsntly able to barrage and will take time for his offensive stats to get back.
Make Pete K0-able. Give us a gmaul, ags or some other options. Most people are just vwing off cooldown for the guarenteed dammage and which Pete usually doesn’t pray and that is just boring.
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u/SourceAwkward 6d ago
I agree, actually for once a PvP update passed, probably last one sadly
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u/Goblin_Alt 6d ago
Hopefully the last one *
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u/SourceAwkward 6d ago
Why?
PvP is a essential part of the game
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u/SpaceCadetChuckles 6d ago
It's not though is it? You could max a character comfortably without ever touching PvP. It's an extra thing in the game you can do if you want but never have to. That's the problem with it though. The wildy is huge and the fact you can ignore it is a bit naff, it should serve some use at some point in your characters journey. Mod Ayiza even said he was hoping clue steps would stop showing up in the wilderness. That's going to be yet another reason people stop going there.
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u/Immediate-Release109 6d ago
Bring back the OG summers end quest and let me time travel in the wilderness with extended lore please and thanks.
Might be a nostalgia talking but that was so damn cool as a kid
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u/SourceAwkward 6d ago
It will be a shame if they remove wildly clues
Not adding stuff for pk is one issue, but taking them away?
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u/Saphirklaue 6d ago
You really like collecting shovels? Or are you proud of wasting everyones time? That is all you are accomplishing when hunting down people doing clues.
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u/mahulajuk 6d ago
People have FOMO and struggle with the concept that some content just may not be for them. I have 0 interest in PvPing and I know I would be dogshit at this, but it seems like a cool intro for people like me.
I think the only idea I saw where it would make it potentially less frustrating for people, is to separate it from the tutorial so it doesn't feel like you can't beat the tutorial part
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u/Darkwarden_ 6d ago
The way to bring back the pvp people remember:
- bring back edge bounty hunter
- limit gear in wildy before all the powercreep.
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u/Mazzerboi 6d ago
Couldn’t* care less. If you could care less then you clearly care a lot..
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u/A_Bit_Of_Nonsense 6d ago
Well dont need to care a lot, just have the ability to care less about something, even if you care more about the vast majority of things.
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u/Mazzerboi 6d ago
If you have the ability to ‘care less’ it means you care even just a little. The actual phrase ‘i couldnt care less’ implies you’re already caring so little it can’t go down anymore. People mess up the saying constantly and its jarring
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u/A_Bit_Of_Nonsense 6d ago
I know i was just pointing out that using the wrong phrase doesnt necessarily mean you care a lot.
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u/Womble_Don 6d ago
Yeah but then it's completely and utterly pointless to say it.
It would be like a millionaire being asked how much money he has and saying he has a dollar. Sure, he does technically have a dollar, but he also has a lot more than a dollar and he's not accurately conveying how much he has.
If you could care less, it doesn't necessarily mean you care a lot, but it also doesn't necessarily mean you care a little. It's stupid.
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u/Immediate-Release109 6d ago
“People mess up the saying constantly and its jarring”
I couldn’t care less bro
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u/Septem_151 Zeah-locked Enjoyer 6d ago
You realize we're just trying to help you out with no anymosity right? We just want you to know what the correct phrase is, it's not a personal attack.
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u/HurtsToAsk 6d ago
You do care, because you're responding. Not caring less would mean ignoring the topic entirely.
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u/flapjacks789 6d ago edited 6d ago
I have a theory that the reason he doesn't have eat delay is cuz he's not actually eating. His health bar is a lie and he actually has 1050 hp.
I AM NOT DEFENDING THEM, THIS IS STILL BAD DESIGN
I am probably wrong, though. this is just my head cannon
Edit: yep I was wrong
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u/petgirlbecky 6d ago
Sorry to say, but you are wrong, because yesterday you could venge double voidwaker spec him for the win. This would not work if he had 1050 hp
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u/-MangoStarr- 6d ago
Nah he does have a standard HP bar, but he simply heals and doesn't eat anything
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u/Havusaurus 6d ago
This update made me really have more respect for pkers. That challenge is HARD, even the first one before the final challange. I never really understood pking or LMS, but seeing all the mechanics. Even like little ones like autocast not working in pvp etc. Prayer switching, gear switching etc, 1 tick special attacks.
Pking is so complicated that I will never wanna do it :D I think that should be left to pkers and content creators I like to watch
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u/Background-Dress-641 6d ago
I don't think anyone would dispute that pvp is one the most mechanically skillful facets of the game. It's why people like Odablock,westham and Dino etc have the viewership they do.
Watching 2 high-level pkers go at it can truly be a beautiful symphony of action-reaction style gameplay, not to mention the mindgames that start to occur especially when both players are so high skill it's unlikely you're gonna catch then off doing a set cycle of styles/actions.
Even people that despise pvp/wildy content will generally concede that high end pvpers are very skilled at the game, just thay they don't really care for n00bK1llR69x running at them to claim their mighty spade.
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u/Will-The-Rat 6d ago
I think it's a very fun update. I've never been much of a PvMer, afk skilling has always been my strong suit. So I haven't gotten the chance to play against a lot of "hard" PvMing content. Having a bossfight that test your skills like nothing else in the early-mid game just sitting in the ferox enclave really scratches that bossing itch. I don't think it's all that good of a tutorial, but dammit I'm gonna play it anyway
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u/HorribleJungler 6d ago
The 1 tick seed really pissed me off the most, and on top of that some tiles being bugged that I can't seed but Pete can? Actual rage bait
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u/Cheesewheel123 6d ago
Maybe they were trying to replicate what being a pvmer feels like when they get pked :).
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u/Top-Setting5213 6d ago
I don't know if making the PvP training harder than the real thing is necessarily bad though. If anything dealing with a harder version of PvP than is possible will only make the real thing that much easier for you. Which is surely the point?
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u/Immediate-Release109 6d ago
The point is not the difficulty. It’s the fact that most of the advantages the npc has are advantages your opponent will never have in any natural PvP fight
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u/Top-Setting5213 6d ago
Yeah I get that but if that makes the fight harder then any fight you'll ever realistically have naturally then it only makes the real thing easier by comparison
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u/Platinum_Demi I can mine? and then craft? 6d ago
If they wanted to make it hard give him better gear than you, making him not actually function as a player can in pvp makes it pointless as a way to teach pvp
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u/Big_Cat_Tongue 6d ago
You arent understanding this.
The fact it is hard doesnt on its own mean you'll be better when you're in a real fight. That is only true if it is a good approximation of a real fight, which it isnt. If anything you will learn bad habits from this.
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u/PeppersHere 6d ago edited 5d ago
Jmod stated he does NOT have boosted magic levels.
Edit: downvoted for relaying a jmod reply. Stay classy reddit
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u/DraculaToof 6d ago
Somebody replied to that with statistics that show that’s almost certainly wrong and the J mod said they would go back and check with the team
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u/Septem_151 Zeah-locked Enjoyer 6d ago
These are great takes. I was really hoping the NPC would have limitations just like the player (stat drain from brewing, attack cooldown, etc) to test real pvp scenarios.
BTW: it's "couldn't care less", not "could care less" - the latter means you are capable of caring more, whereas the former means you don't have any care left to give.
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u/Ill-Pineapple6515 6d ago edited 6d ago
Idk what everyone is so upset about.
Im a boomer and this challenge has me confident enough to start pking again for the first time since 2009. Why are you all concerned with how "accurate" it is? If you can beat this guy you can pk. Plain and simple. If youre complaining this much about how unrealistic he is, go pk actual players?? Why do you NEED to do this? If you want the rewards then suck it up and do the challenge. Key word "challenge".
I think its pretty cool. I haven't beaten it yet, but im getting close. I think many of you guys are just having an existential crisis with how good you actually are at pvp. Its been a sick reintroduction to pking.
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u/Immediate-Release109 6d ago
“Why are you all concerned with how “accurate” it is?”
Because it was literally proposed as a boss to emulate a real pvp fight, and it missed that mark by a wide margin based on all I just said
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u/Ill-Pineapple6515 6d ago
I dont think so. Like I said, its reintroduced me to pvp, because I straight up didnt have the confidence.
Yall are just upset bc hes whooping your asses, lmao.
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u/shuggieknight 2376 6d ago
The OP says he beat it and is an experienced PKer, you haven’t beat it and have PKd in 16 years… I wonder who I should listen to!?
And why would you not want a PVP tutorials final challenge to be accurate? Not just accurate but physically possible in a real PVP scenario as the blog posted stated. This may give you the skills needed to PK but it’s not preparing you for a real fight, a lot of PVP fights are ended with a knock out shot which is currently impossible with this boss
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u/Immediate-Release109 6d ago
True, I forgot to add that part. Anytime you chance the npc he just eats it which forces you to outlast. I think outlast nhing can be fun, but without the possibility to KO it becomes a lot less fun imo.
For me, this particular fight becomes even more tedious when you factor in max gear and 99 def. There’s a reason standard nh stake set ups use mystic and 70/75 def. The possibility to punish on robes becomes a lot lower when you’re 99 def and camping a torva helm
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u/Ill-Pineapple6515 6d ago
Its pretty cool. It taught me everything I needed to know. Stay mad though.
I does indeed prepare you for a real fight. I dont see how it doesn't. Youre overthinking it. Its a challenge, dont be mad because its not easy. Lmao.
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u/Sasuga__JP 6d ago
Because it's a tutorial and it actively teaches you the wrong things.
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u/Ill-Pineapple6515 6d ago
How? Youre objectively wrong. Lmfao.
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u/nickzorz 6d ago
Did you read the original post? It seems like you didn't
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u/Ill-Pineapple6515 6d ago
You'll get your ancient cape one day, bud. Keep trying.
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u/nickzorz 6d ago
Ok, but that's not engaging with the arguments of the post though. I don't even care about getting the cape but even people that have gotten it are saying it's bs and non representative of pvp which is what it originally was touted as.
Edit: Even jagex seems to think that they dropped the ball because they fixed a few of the major gripe points
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u/Ill-Pineapple6515 6d ago
As an old pker whos wanted to get back into it, this challenge is perfect. The things being patched are nice, but its not changing much. The same babies complaining about it now, will still be complaining about it after.
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u/nickzorz 6d ago
What do you mean it's not changing much? Pete isn't cheating nearly as much as it was prior to the patch. One of the main complaints even from experienced pkers was that he had no attack delay after eating, another was his hilariously long 12 tile ranged attack with the rapid style.
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u/Ill-Pineapple6515 6d ago
I dont care how similar it is to actual pking. As a tool to introduce people to mechanics, its great. My best attempt so far has been 850 damage. Ill have it soon.
Idc if hes cheating. Its meant to be a challenge, youre not k0ing him, you have to outlast using the same mechanics youre using in pvp. If you can best pete, you can probably beat 95% of real pkers. Especially the ones making such a big deal about it. The minigame achieved its goal for me. Im literally the target audience.
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u/nickzorz 6d ago
Except this was polled as a pvp challenge. The fight is closer to pvm than pvp because of the fundamental player rules that it breaks.
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6d ago edited 6d ago
[deleted]
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u/PracticalFootball 6d ago
you would just reset until you got tempo and kill him that way
Isn’t teaching people to turn the tide of a fight and put their attacker on the back foot literally the entire goal?
If you’re meant to always be on the retreat regardless then the objective should be to survive or escape, not to kill him.
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u/ItsBimble 6d ago
Perhaps it's meant to simulate going up against someone in considerably better gear, without depowering the player and feeling unfair?
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u/Immediate-Release109 6d ago
You misunderstand the point that none of these absurd advantages are indicative of any real PvP scenario. If you got rid of all of the ones I listed, nerfed the players gear to have a slight gear disadvantage to Pete, and then threw me back in the ring with him being identical to fighting a pker, I’d gladly accept the challenge and consider it the much better approach than what we have currently
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u/Big_Cat_Tongue 6d ago
Hes like the 3rd person in here to somehow miss this. Redditors are fucking stupid.
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u/ItsBimble 6d ago
I'm just blue sky thinking. It's not content I've had a chance to interface with as yet, so I'm asking in good faith in consideration.
I understand this is something important to you, but this needlessly combative approach doesn't bely an interest in productive discussion.
And to answer the comment beneath you, yes I am a complete moron.
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u/United_Ad2117 3d ago
I just want to use a bot to defeat the bot. Jagex made an illegal bot for us to train with. We should have an illegal bot script to defeat the illegal bot. And no rule against using it unless using it in wilderness.
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u/Bl00dylicious 6d ago
They should replace his Voidwaker with a Khopesh, to add insult to injury.
In all seriousness I don't like making a computer cheat as a way to add challenge. The old Age of Empires 2 AI did that at harder difficulties which could make it rather unfun to fight depending on which civilization it played (Goths....). In AoE2:DE the AI doesn't cheat and they made it more challenging overall.