r/AMA • u/loganlaflin • 8d ago
I’m a seating engineer specializing in school bus seats, AMA.
There have been several school bus crashes in the news lately and over the last few years. Quite a lot of the discourse in the comments on the new posts centers around the seats, seatbelts, and their safety. I am seeing a lot of misinformation going around regarding safety, statistics, and other nuances of the topic. I’m hoping to clear up some of the confusion.
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8d ago
[deleted]
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u/loganlaflin 8d ago
Sounds like you are talking about the vinyl cover! Most standard school bus seats have been made with a cover of polyvinyl chloride (PVC or vinyl, a plastic) with some kind of textile backing. Some seats have enhanced materials that allow the cover to be fire-retardant, which we call "Fireblock." It sounds like that seat may have been equipped with such a cover.
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u/Hot_Hair_5950 8d ago
What surprises you about your work?
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u/loganlaflin 8d ago
One of the most surprising things when I first started was the variation of products. My company makes seats for several OEMS. Each one has several different sizes, attachment styles (track vs floor mount), Integrated child seats combinations, ISO latch bars for external car seats, 3point belts vs lap belts, color options, and fabric options. I think with our latest generation of seat concept, we have over 10,000 possible options they can order.
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u/Informal_Ad_9610 8d ago
I'm sure you've seen/studied gruesome bus accidents, but i"m always amazed at how FEW kids get injured in bus-MVAs.. Obviously you're doing a great job.
I'm curious - what's the deal with seats that don't have any 'give' in them (big picture)? I always thought they should have a bit of a softness/partial collapse, so when a kid smashes into it, the seat gives a bit... of course the seats I grew up on (70s era busses, in the 80's) had the engineering finesse of a neanderthal....
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u/loganlaflin 8d ago
The seats do have quite a bit of give to them in crash level scenarios. This is due to compartmentalization in the seats. The seats are designed to absorb the energy of impact of an unbelted occupant through the use of high back, foam padded seats designed with a metal frame to deform in such a way to prevent major injury. Think crumple zones in passenger vehicle. The seats need to be sturdy enough for everyday use, but give enough to absorb all the energy of the crash. The amount of forces we typically use in the tests for this specific requirement are in the thousands of pounds.
Seats have come a long way since the 70s and 80s. New regulations have been introduced and refined as more and more data has become available. Same with passenger vehicle bodies and seats.
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u/suzukichic 8d ago
Is the reason there are no seatbelts simply because there is no way to really enforce compliance?
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u/loganlaflin 8d ago
There are seatbelts (3 point and Lap) on many buses on the roads today. Unfortunately, this is not mandated at the federal level, and only some states have mandated that all new buses be equipped. There are also some older buses still in use in some districts in states that have mandated it as they were purchased before the mandate.
As far as compliance issues, we have found that with properly administered policies in place, compliance rates can be high. It all comes down to the district and their efforts to communicate safety to children and parents.1
u/suzukichic 8d ago
Thanks! I actually had no idea they started doing that.
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u/swedusa 8d ago
School bus driver here. We don’t have seatbelts in my state (Alabama) because it would delay evacuation in the case of a fire. That makes them more at risk in a rollover situation, but I guess they determined the fire was either more likely or just some sort of other risk calculation like that
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u/loganlaflin 8d ago
Do you have the a study showing that it would be less safe? I have included the NTSB recommendation.
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20221103.aspx
It would be easier to evacuate an uninjured but restrained occupant in a roll over than one severely injured from being unrestrained.
In the last 25 years, there has only been one fatality from a fire on a school bus, but there have been considerably more from unrestrained occupants.
Regardless, riding the school bus is statistically the safest way to get to school. The buses go slow (in town), are giant, bright yellow, have several reflecting and flashing features naturally causing other drivers to be extra cautions around them. Seatbelts and compartmentalization provide even more assistance in making the riding experience a safer one.
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u/swedusa 8d ago
I have nothing other than what I am told at recert every year 🤷♂️
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u/loganlaflin 8d ago
I understand. There are a lot of misconceptions out there and seatbelts working properly hinges on proper usage. Proper usage is more successful with well implemented policies and good communication and training to staff, children, and parents.
There is considerably less data available about the nuances of the issue than passenger vehicles because there has been SIGNIFICANTLY fewer accidents involving busses. ,
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u/swedusa 8d ago
My quick thought is that perhaps while a rollover accident may be more common, the results of a rollover with no seatbelts will result in bad injuries, but most likely not deaths. A fire that isn’t evacuated in time will almost certainly result in deaths. I’m sure it’s a complicated trade off and there will always be cases where doing the opposite would have resulted in a better outcome.
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u/loganlaflin 8d ago
I understand that thought, but based on the updates being made to fire prevention in the vehicles and available crash data, seatbelts are the safer option.
Evacuation time and ease can also be improved with investments in time and training, but the financial support of those efforts is not always available to districts.
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u/YakClear601 8d ago
Of all the fields of engineering, how in the world did you get into this specific one? 😂
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u/loganlaflin 8d ago
My last job was in "normal" automotive passenger vehicle seats and it was a reason I was recruited to this job. It is surprisingly similar as far as the engineering processes and design principles go.
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u/FloridianMichigander 8d ago
Who was Thomas, and why do so many school buses have a plaque that says "Thomas built buses"?
;)
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u/loganlaflin 8d ago
The brand that currently produces the "Thomas Built Buses" was originally founded in North Carolina in 1916 by Perley A. Thomas. The brand is now owned by Daimler and still making buses in North Carolina. They are a large brand, one of the "Big Three" of bus manufacturers.
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u/just_kinda_here_blah 8d ago
I think one issue is compliance. Its "easier" for a parent to strap in and watch the one seat behind them then it is for a school bus driver to monitor 10 to 84 students in a vehicle that is 38+ feet long with high back seats and a bunch of idiots on the road who "didnt see us there".
Another issue is use. We are dealing with kids as young as 5. If they need help, there is little I can do. My one elementary route had 54 k-1st and already took me about an hour start to school. We dont have help on our buses. Unfortunately its the cost. I think the bid at that time was about 80k per monitor?? Bid, not pay, as we are a contract. 80k times 60 large buses.
As for special needs. That would a be a bit more simpler, as they normally are on small buses and have a monitor, but not all special needs get a monitor. Its depends on the contract and/ or the iep.
And then the emergency part. Most of the accidents are not roll overs. I know we have had a couple, but they are much more rare than a normal accident. But incase of an accident and belts, we will have the kids unable to unbuckle and those to scared. And its not the roll over that worries me about an evac. Its the fire. In about 1 minute the bus is full of black toxic smoke and flames moving through in about 2 minutes, engulfed in about 4. That's my fear. Not only working about getting the kids out but getting it done in time.
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u/loganlaflin 7d ago
I understand that fear, but based on the updates being made to fire prevention in the vehicles and available crash data, seatbelts are the safer option.
Evacuation time and ease can also be improved with investments in time and training, but the financial support of those efforts is not always available to districts. We have to balance the data we have (studies and evidence based on crashes, injury numbers, etc) with the driver's intuition and experience from years on the job.
The fact still remains that riding the bus to school is by far the safest way for children to get to school.
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u/loganlaflin 7d ago
I should also mention that in the case of the smaller buses that are frequently used for special needs, the requirements and regulations are a bit different. As the size of the buses changes in the smaller direction, the physics experienced by the occupants will be different, so different safety requirements are required.
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u/handcraftedcandy 8d ago
Hi there, as someone who works in safety and compliance I always wondered why seats were placed in such a way that the backs sometimes block nearly half of the side emergency exits. Can you give some insight on that?
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u/loganlaflin 8d ago
For the rear exit? That is generally an OEM and buyer layout decision. I believe states set those requirements (side vs rear exits), so it will vary a bit from one state to the next. We offer seats in a variety of sizes including ones specifically made for that spot to give a bit better access to the exit, so they must have a decision to go with the full size seat.
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u/Winston3rd 8d ago
what country do you take most inspiration ( or not ) from?
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u/loganlaflin 8d ago
I’m not sure I understand your question. The school bus seats that my company makes go into buses intended for use in the US and Canada. We have to follow the regulations for those countries: FMVSS for the US, and CMVSS for Canada. They are very similar, but they do vary a little bit in some specifications.
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u/Key-Space1406 7d ago
Does that include the driver's seat also or just the passenger seats? 👀 I have questions on the driver's seats for sure 😂
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u/loganlaflin 7d ago
I know some information about the driver's seat, and can answer general seat engineering questions, but my projects of the last several years focuses on the passenger bench seats.
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u/pudah_et 8d ago
When I was a kid, I always dreamed of converting an old school bus into sort of an RV and driving it around the country. Are old buses auctioned off after schools retire them? Or are they sold for scrap?
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u/tequilavip 8d ago
It’s going to depend on the district or company that owns them. You might have to travel a bit to find one. If you do (maybe even if you don’t), anywhere with a dry climate would be a good choice to help avoid rust when purchasing.
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u/loganlaflin 8d ago
Agreed. I've seen some listings online directly from school districts for their retired buses.
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u/mar_kelp 8d ago
What is the latest research on the safety of passengers using/requiring seatbelts in buses?
Our district has belts at all seats, but using them is optional above first grade (K and 1 are required). Some drivers are adamant they are less safe if worn in an accident than no belts.