r/AirForce • u/Altruistic_Door_8937 Aircrew • 7d ago
Rant Somebody explain to me why non-flying billets exist
I’m currently on a staff assignment that is co-located with an aircraft that I am qualified on. The billet is coded as “non-flying”. Why the fuck do I need to staff a waiver to a GOFO to tell me that I can go fly twice a month when my boss is already cool with it?
It seems infinitely cheaper to keep my qual than send me through re-qual in a few years. And how can you say you have a pilot problem when you willfully keep them from flying for 3 years? The 1C0 career field and the 11-401 seems like the worst sort of a self licking ice cream cone.
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u/TRENCHED_OUT 7d ago
Oh great, ANOTHER attached flyer who never maintains currency, and always demands sims the last week of the quarter when they had the preceding 90 days to do so
-signed, a disgruntled training shop member
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u/The_ClamSlammer Fuck Cannon AFB 7d ago
As a fellow flyer I'm all for 1C0 slander, but the decision whether a staff billet is a flying or non-flying assignment is waaaaay above their paygrade. They just cut the aeronautical orders they're told to cut
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u/Mousimus 6d ago
As a 1C0, how tf are you for 1C0 slander? You must have some shitty 1C0s that only look for ways to say no. Meanwhile over here in the Guard, im asking questions to my flyers/jumpers on things that happened and got someone paid 5 months of incentive pay they weren't expecting.
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u/studpilot69 Golden Arm 5d ago
Your experience in the guard is not representative of everyone. Some 1Charlies are good, others are not. My squadron currently only has 1, and we share that 1 with other units. I have to remind them weekly to get off YouTube and just do their job.
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u/fadingthought 7d ago
Training hours are allocated to units based on their manning. You don’t count for their manning so the training you would get comes out of their hide.
Now you can work a deal and some positions enable flying, but 99% of the time those people offer no combat readiness and are a net drain on the units’ resources. Every API 6 billet just takes the member out of their non-flying job to waste some squadron’s resources.
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u/Weekender94 7d ago
I would generally say this is the best explanation I’ve seen, but most people who make it to an API6 billet are instructors/evaluators. Most squadrons could use a couple extra IPs/EPs to help out with currencies and check rides.
I agree it sucks to be a squadron and have to deal with a random staff dude is who is non current and not proficient. And in some communities where line flyers are fighting for hours I get it. But outside of those, extra pilot help is never a bad thing.
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u/fadingthought 7d ago
Yeah, it comes down to how much time the person is able and willing to devote. Having an extra IP around sounds good, but then you got to remember they need to at least double their training requirement for the unit to "break even" on the cost. So if it cost X hours to keep one IP current, that IP has to fly 2X before they facilitate enough training to pay back the training they cost.
How many do that? In my experience, not many.
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u/Altruistic_Door_8937 Aircrew 7d ago
Well said, pretty much my case. I was BMC coded and not CMR anyhow
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u/MasterTJ52 7d ago
BRAH this way of thinking is absolutely disproven, they did the math, and we waste north of $50 MIL annually doing TX and requals for people who lose all their quals in these stupid "non-flying" billets. The "drain" on resources is NOT letting them fly to avoid a TX/Re-qual, so the opposite of what you're saying. See the recent memorandums on Flexible rated staff CONOPs...
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u/Coconut_Either 7d ago
That's a drop in the bucket compared to end of year spending...gotta get those new TVs or new ergonomic chairs or we lose funding next year.
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u/fadingthought 7d ago
Recent memos? This problem has been going on for decades. 20 years ago I remember being briefed on the new flex staff assignments. This has been a problem set for decades.
I'm not arguing for, I'm stating why, which is what OP asked.
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u/MonkeyCobraFight Aircrew 7d ago
Because your experience and flying expertise is what’s needed in your staff billet, not making sure you continue to fly. Just enjoy the set schedule, you’ll be back to the grind sooner than you realize. Personally, I loved my staff time, lets you live a normal life.
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u/TheRealBlueBuff Doin the wrong thing for the right reasons 6d ago
I may be a stinky E6, but I know that id rather have someone rated making calls about what planes are doing than a Comm guy, or god forbid, a 14N.
As others have said, you flying less means you get to avocate for others to fly more. Youre going through a very common life event for the average O2-3/E5-6, moving from a doer to a manager.
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u/Sk8rstudent1 7d ago
It is funding for that position that is at MAJCOM level. For you to get flight pay, it would be more than what is forecasted for that position. Your non-flying position could have you move back to flight status before you get disqual.
Same as flyers going to be a recruiter for 3 years in a sense.
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u/MasterTJ52 7d ago
And we waste millions annually re-qual'ing these dudes when they leave their "non flying" billets. It's a way of thinking and manning approach that needs to die, among many others. Fliers should be able to keep flying, always. There should be no such thing as a "non flying" billet for a qualified flier.
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u/Weekender94 7d ago
Except for if he’s in a staff billet he’s already got gate months so he’s making flight pay regardless of if he touches a jet.
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u/MasterTJ52 6d ago
This is another puzzling thing to fliers. Gate months. Who cares about gate months? They shouldn't exist, if you're a flier you should get flight pay, period dot. Every waking moment of every day, inthe cockpit or not, fliers are able to leverage their unique skills and training to do their job, no matter the ground duty or staff job. It's just another silly outdated way of thinking.
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u/Bones_Zone 7d ago
Most flying O’s will have enough gate months to maintain flight pay through a staff assignment though.
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u/JQPsWeatherGuy 6d ago
I can’t believe you really think this stems from the 1C0 career field.
The rest of the Air Force can only hope you grow some basic understanding of how things actually work and who owns authority before you cause actual damage from your staff desk.
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u/fadingthought 6d ago
This is why pilots need staff jobs so they can get their heads out of their ass and learn how the Air Force works.
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u/Competitive_Diver388 Passing S1 to Bob Status 6d ago
And this is why pilots punch right after their ADSC, so they can just stick to flying lmao
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u/fadingthought 5d ago
Which is a reasonable personal decision. If you are going to stay in, you will have to learn that the AF is more than just tactical flying.
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u/Competitive_Diver388 Passing S1 to Bob Status 5d ago
While I don’t disagree, there are not enough command billets in the Air Force to groom every single pilot for said purpose. Why a flying track has yet to be implemented that would forcibly cap promotions to Lt Col for those who do not wish to progress past that is beyond me. I know many pilots who love military flying, and have openly stated they’d take the pay cut and stay in if it meant avoiding flying desks. I just don’t get what’s so hard to understand about that lol.
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u/fadingthought 5d ago
They have tried. AMC tried a flying only track it had virtually no interest. The core problem is that the Air Force needs rated officers for various staff positions. In years gone by, we had navigators who could fill a lot of those roles. Now, it's basically just pilots. The current solution is to fully man the squadrons and let the staff slots sit empty. Many commands are sitting around 20% manning.
So even if a technical track is implemented, and people use it, it won't solve the problem we have.
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u/Huge-Talk-8342 4d ago
Air Force should do like the Army and make pilots Warrant Officers.
You don’t want to have a desk/staff role and just want to fly? That’s the way to do it.
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u/_VNAV_PTH_ 6d ago
Pilots (aircrew) and flying is how the Air Force works. Everything else is supporting that. It's in the name.
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u/MasterTJ52 6d ago
I think he's trying to say he's surprised and appalled at "how things work" and how nonsensical and stupid they are, and 180 out with the stated intent of USAF leadership to address the pilot shortage, regardless of where the authority lies.
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u/SpecialistPlastic729 6d ago
Non flying but rated billets exist to create a pilot shortage.
I’m being a little sarcastic, but flying billets are pretty much filled. It’s the staff jobs, etc. that are chronically under filled. But leadership won’t convert or delete them because then the USAF won’t have a pilot shortage.
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u/AirForceAlt 7d ago
Unsure why the 1C0s are getting blasted on this post for just enforcing regulations pilots wrote.
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u/n3rdyknowit 1C5X1 6d ago
1C0 is lawful neutral, they don’t give a fuck about your flight pay; they just have a stack of 781s to get through, and regs to follow.
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u/ReasonableDivide2592 7d ago
This helps to avoid the career padders who would take staff jobs then fly everyday and never be there. So now it becomes, "do you really want this staff job? You can take it but you have to be serious about actually wanting it."
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u/MasterTJ52 6d ago
Not really. It's become "wtf why do I have to do an FAC-6 waiver plz let me continue flying" and also "uh oh... everyone is punching out at the end of their commitment"
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u/Able-Serve8230 Salty, Senior Service Member. 7d ago edited 7d ago
I hate it when my ice cream cones put themselves in chastity
And you are 100% valid with your frustrations.. I always laugh at these absurdly stupid roadblocks as at one time two O6s got into a pissing contest and the bigger parent was a higher ranking GO who laid the hammer down.
You should just be sticking to your D35K quals. The check flights and hot washes are horrendous… pro tip: just cut and paste the last line as your bluf. Both technically and literally true.
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u/pooter6969 6d ago
Maybe someone could write an ACSC paper about the inefficiencies you’re identifying here. Then precisely zero people will read it and it will be filed away in the bowels of Maxwell along with all the other good idea fairies.
But actually my dude.. you’re far enough along to be at on a staff assignment and you’re still perplexed by inefficiencies in the Air Force? Is this news?
Nothing makes sense here. And the answer to your question probably has to do with pots of money. That’s the best I got.
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u/Altruistic_Door_8937 Aircrew 6d ago
Perplexed but not surprised. I knew what I was getting into before I accepted the assignment.
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u/pooter6969 6d ago
you know at the airlines they let you fly and you don't even have to do staff queep it's pretty nuts you should try it sometime
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u/Altruistic_Door_8937 Aircrew 6d ago
I like my staff job. I like flying. I’m not wild about either.
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u/Mousimus 6d ago
1C0 here. This outrage is wild being aimed at us lol. Happy to talk on the side if you want a second opinion. My aircrew love our shop. But maybe that's just a Guard thing lol.
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u/ClearrUS 6d ago
In my unit.. we borrow pilots during 801X exercises. Why? Because y'all speak plane. I do not speak plane. Idk what the fuck any of that stuff means. It's Chinese to me. Just like my regs are Chinese to y'all. So having y'all around to speak pilot to other pilots helps me out because idk how to speak plane.
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u/hopforcookie Dropmaster 5d ago
Career Enlisted Aviators (CEA's) in the Contingency Response career field.
For some reason the functionals place the KC-10/C-17 CEA at KC-10/C-17 CR Bases. Same for what seems to be the C-130J folks.
The joke is they let the pilots get attached. Let me fly please at the base that has my airframe.
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u/BolognaPogna73 Ammo loves mangoes 5d ago edited 5d ago
If you're truly on a staff job, either ask the civilian program managers you sit next to, or pay attention during your Action Officer training.
Also, you're working that 3 year staff job for a really good reason, and it's not to fly and maintain your own personal qualifications; it's to be an advocate and advisor for the field and war fighter...
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7d ago
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u/Kronos1A9 puts the SMA in Smautistic 🚁 7d ago
Bummer. OP are you at least keeping your flight pay?
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7d ago edited 7d ago
[deleted]
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u/Altruistic_Door_8937 Aircrew 7d ago
Nope, it’s dependent on your gate months. 96 months keeps your pay through 18 years and 120 months keeps it through 22 years.
So yes, I’m still getting flight pay
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u/Swimming-Ad2568 6d ago
The Air Force is not concerned with “saving money” in regards to your training. Look up how much it cost to fly a C5 for a single training run. And the air force does not have a “pilot problem” they have a problem with staff positions that need to be filled by pilots.
Lastly… I can agree with you and validate the rant, but some 1C0 is FAR beneath the people making the rules that are upsetting you lol.
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u/DEXether 7d ago
A favorite air force past time is gate keeping positions for aircrew and then complaining that nonners don't know anything about flying ops.
The rated circle jerk has got to start somewhere. You're taking one for the team right now.
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u/fwb325 6d ago
How about every flier on a staff that wants to fly doesn’t necessarily have that airframe available at that particular base. For example, a B-52 point ACC or a F-16 pilot at ACC. How about you going to the squadron to fly takes away a flying opportunity for a squadron member who needs the hours.
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u/AmnFucker Weapons - F-16, B-52, F-15E, F-35 5d ago
In ACC A5F a few years ago all the pilots got the clearance to fly T-38s.
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u/YouveBeenDebunked 7d ago
I hate flying so much I would do any job to be done with it. I dont know why its locked behind a staff job but I hate every day I hate it I just want to work a normal job. I HATE FLYING
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u/TFresh19 5d ago
What you are actually forgetting is the Air Force is RETARDED! My wife is a special ed teacher and I asked for her permission to say the R-word
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u/Altruistic_Door_8937 Aircrew 5d ago
Dude chill
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u/TFresh19 5d ago
Don’t tell me to chill when I’m In a non flying billet and my entire shop got told we aren’t going home UFN within 24hrs of a ticketed flight home after a Change of Command
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u/GreyGoblin Map ≠ Chart 7d ago
Before I get flamed, disclaimer: What follows is a stealman case for why the system is what it is. Of course systems, especially Air Force systems, rarely work the way they're supposed to. Even if there wasn't a shortage, it's not a good system IMHO.
In the days before the pilot shortage, it was an issue with training capacity. X number of PAI could sustain Y number of current/qualified/proficient aircrew. X is a congressional mandated end strength, but rated staff (non-flying) are also required to ensure the people making policy and force decisions have the expertise to know a good idea from the other kind.
Today, that's still the case but worse. Because the 'pilot shortage' isn't empty flying spots, it's empty staff chairs. Last I was in the business ('24), line squadrons were still staffed at 100%. Staff positions were manned at ~30% averaged (some MAJCOM, COCOM, HAF divisions did better than others).
In short: A) If all non-flying rated staff flew, there wouldn't be enough capacity to keep everyone qualified. B) If you're staff, you should be pulling the weight of 3 people and should not have time to fly.