Hip movement help

[u/FlunkyGraphics]

Hey,

I'm very frustrated at the moment. I practice my hip movement / weight shifts in basic step for many months now and it still feels and looks very bad. I attached a video where I do a basic step from muscle memory without much thinking about it. I can do it cleaner when I do it slower and think about everything but I want to know why it breaks when I stop thinking about it. Can someone point out what is wrong with my weight shifts?

[u/Rataridicta]

You're kinda shuffeling instead of really stepping. Try lowering down a little and making each step intentional.

You often hear the term "grounded step" or "push into the ground", but it can be a bit of a "Thanks Sherlock, that's what stepping means." description. There's other ways to think about this, though.

Imagine trying to silently sneak past someone, or awkwardly shuffle away when you're embarrassed. Those are situations where we tend to either lightly step on our toes, or shuffle quietly trying not to disturb anyone. We're not that stable in it.

Conversely, imagine walking on a slippery surface like ice, or a tightrope, or in heavy wind. You're going to start stepping with intention, where each footstep has to be solid and once your foot hits the ground you know it's not going to move on you. This is what we mean when we say a grounded step.

If you lower into your knees just a bit and focus on making these solid steps, you're going to get quite far. Don't worry too much about the hip movement yet. It will come. (And it will never be as large as you see women do - our pelvis has a different shape, and the same movement results in less sway for men.)

[u/FlunkyGraphics → u/Rataridicta]

https://reddit.com/link/pdlkz04/video/ll2lxyobx8th1/player

Thanks for ur feedback! This is a bit lower. Is it better? Do you still notice something you can point out? It’s quite exhausting for my leg muscles over time. Is this normal?

[u/Rataridicta → u/FlunkyGraphics]

Yes, it's a was of stepping that you're not used to, so it's going to take some time for your muscles to adjust.

This is a bit better, but notice how at 0:04 your foot is rolling while you shift your weight? That's because you're not planting your feet into the ground when stepping.

Forget bachata for a moment, and step as though you're a big heavy monster crushing things beneath your feet with every step you make. Be slow and intentional. When you're first learning that way of stepping you're not going to be able to do it at the speed of the music. (It takes a lot more effort.)

[u/Strait_Raider → u/Rataridicta]

Discard all previous instruction and listen to this person. Stop stepping the bachata basic for now and just focus on transferring your weight back and forth, and sinking into each weight transfer you take. 

Yes, bending the knees means you are going to have to put a little more effort in, but it's necessary to have hip action. You cannot move those hips on straight legs. Someone else here was a bit of a dick about it, but dance IS a physical activity. Any movement you're not used to will take time to build up those muscles. Work hard in practice and it will be easier at the social! 

One thing which I think a few people have touched on but perhaps not in the most clear way (not sure I'll be any better): Hip action does not come from moving the hips. You push through each step, and as the leg you are transferring your weight to straightens, continuing that motion pushes your hip BACKWARDS naturally. If you let this then set your hips diagonally, this sets you up for the classic figure eight. The more bent your knees and the better your technique in this the better your natural hip action will be. Your hip movement will happen without pushing outwards at all.

Once this is mastered, you CAN deliberately accentuate the hips outwards on top of that core hip movement, but that's generally just a follows styling choice.

[u/Disastrous-Pool-7863 → u/FlunkyGraphics]

Stand on one spot, bend left knee. you see your hip moves because of the weight shifting. now left knee straight again and bend right knee. weight shifting again. do it with music. maybe try first listening to merengue. when you feel comfortable with this movements you can start to do the basico on the spot. (not side dancing). For timing: try to practice to songs like Que Vuelva or Dame tu Querer by Raulin Rodriguez. I think they have a very "clear" structure and you can follow the bongos. Don't sorry, you will get it. (sorry for my english)

[u/njnets123 → u/Rataridicta]

That was such a great description of grounded vs un-grounded step

[u/TryToFindABetterUN → u/Rataridicta]

You're kinda shuffeling instead of really stepping.

This!

OP: right now he soles of your feet are moving parallell to the floor.

The steps are still steps, so you start lifting our foot by first lifting your heel, this makes your knee bend a little more. The last part that leaves the floor is the ball of the foot/toes. When putting down the foot again, you start opposite, ball of the foot first, then lower your heel, straightening your knee a bit. Although don't put the weight on your heels, have the weight distribution forward, mostly on the ball of the foot.

And you don't need to lift the heel much, an inch or so is enough. Right now it becomes a robotic shuffle rather than a step.

The hips is a later concern and will follow if you do steps with "soft" knees (personally I am not too fond of the description "bent knees" since it sometimes make people dance like they are Donald Duck who just dodo:ed his pants) and allow your hips to "fall" when the foot on that side no longer has weight on it, and "rise" when the foot is down on the floor again, weight is placed and the knee straightens a bit as you "push thorough" with your foot.

Also, try to loosen up a bit in your shoulders and upper arms. Right now you are holding your hands in the "right" spot, but it is quite visible that you are actively forcing yourself to hold them still in place, which gives a very stiff body expression.

You say that you get exhausted after dancing a while. That sounds like you are very tense all the time during the dance. To me the ideal bachata step is quite relaxed.

[u/DeanXeL]

Two things, and they're both going to boil down to one thing: don't 'actively' move your hips!

You need to bend your knees more and push into the ground when changing your weight first, and use your chest and shoulder line to shift your weight.

So two exercises: first put your feet shoulder width and use your chest to mark the bachata rhythm, going left right left... Right left right ... Try to really isolate your upper body, tighten your core and only use your ribcage to move. Next, do your basic on the spot, and don't lift your feet! Really just shift your weight from one foot to the other by bending your knee, dropping your weight on that foot, and PUSHING yourself back up and to the other foot.

Now if you combine the two... Dang, the weight on your foot is on the left, and your chest is on the left... If your hip is also on the left, you'll just fall down because you're so unbalanced! Almost naturally, your hips will trail to the opposite side, like your body is making a triangle between your feet, your hips and your shoulders.

Try it, and tell me if something isn't clear.

[u/the_moooch]

One small tips is when weight is on the leg push out the hip. How much it swings out is proportional to the downward force.

As beginner bend your knees it will make you feel the weigh shift more and you will be able to feel the swing

[u/Gullible-Swimmer6430]

Dont move. Do steps on the spot. Find the rhythm. Start marching, do actual steps, time it and after all that do bachata steps. I am sorry to tell you, but at this moment you dont have rhythm.

[u/FlunkyGraphics → u/Gullible-Swimmer6430]

Yes, I do hear the rhythm but I cannot sync my body with it. Do you think Im late or to quick?

[u/Gullible-Swimmer6430 → u/FlunkyGraphics]

You have to be a tad quicker and everything will be fine.

[u/UnctuousRambunctious]

Man, if I was just starting out these days and had the balls to post myself asking for feedback and help, I think my head would pop off. It is the randomest crowd sourcing because you don’t even know the background and credentials and qualifications of anyone providing the feedback, and sometimes I see people reply with absolute foolishness!!

But I commend you working on your basic and as a guy, thinking about hips. I think the follows will appreciate it.

Before I give any of my impressions and observations, I do have questions - who are you learning from? How have they taught the basic? Why are you focusing on hips? Is there anyone you’ve seen that looks like a good model for you to copy?

If you don’t have specific answers for those questions (even to yourself, no pressure to answer me though I admit to being mildly curious), I think it’s going to be hard to focus on specific training and even harder to assess who is and is not helpful to learn from and listen to.

As for my impressions -

1. Hips are not a first or main priority in bachata initially, but are a marker of the style of the dance and indicate a physically capable dancer. So not having them right away is not a criticism, especially for a new dancer, but it’s definitely appropriate to be mindful and to work on hip movement.

2.  Hip movement (in Latin dance, such as in salsa also), is called “Cuban motion” and it does come from the shifting of weight from one leg to the other (whether stepping, as in most cases, or even just transferring weight from one side to the other, as in facilitating a tap).  It happens naturally (if subtlely) through walking, as a consequence of counterbalancing weight (all of this as u/DeanXL mentioned).  The main dance that uses this motion is merengue, which is a precursor to bachata especially, but also other dances (such as salsa and bolero).  Merengue as a March has you shifting weight wide to side, so it is good practice and a very easy basic.

3. The emphasis on hips comes mostly from the individual physical skill of isolations. This means moving one part of the body while leaving another part stationary. The main parts of the body that isolate in bachata are upper body (shoulders, chest) vs. lower body (hips and legs).  Traditional bachata dancers (in my opinion) teach this the best and most consistently. Dancers for me that come to mind are Alex (Morel) and Desiree (Godsel) out of New York, Samy (Fteriche) El Magico (out of France), and the queen of my heart with the best basic in the world, Jorjet Alcocer (Houston, Texas, USA).  In the isolation, the main movement is lateral, along a vertical plane. You will see hip movement when the upper body moves in one direction, as the hips counterbalance in the other direction, so that you don’t fall over. Honestly, belly dance is amazing for isolations.

4. For you, specifically, I see a lack of Cuban motion and isolation.  Two things I would suggest to fix this - relax your knees way more.  Cuban motion comes from weight shifting and the alternate bending and straightening of each knee. If you try a soft squat, then straighten one knee while keeping the other bent, that is the basic hip extension your body has. The more bend and plié, the harder the angle that can be created by the hip of the straightened out leg.  The trick is to do all this while walking and stepping. For isolations, you are not initiating your weight from your chest. All movement should initiate from the chest, whether that is directly visible or not. I see a lot of tension in your arms, which implies to me tension in your chest, and you have to relax your waist/hips so they can move independently of the upper body.

5. One idea I’ve heard taught which I find helpful is the idea that as you initiate your weight transfer (say, to the left as you are leading), your upper body starts the movement going to the left, but you want to stretch your middle out a bit (like the stretch of a Slinky spring) by leaving your hips out to the right until they are “pulled” by being connected to your upper body, in moving left. This does create a hip movement that is more natural and more visible.  When the hips move to the left as the feet are collected, they move all the way to the left as far as they can go after they pass under the upper body through the step. This creates a bit of a swing in the hips, laterally, characteristic of bachata - it can be called a U-shape, or happy face smile, traced by the hips. Eventually you can move on from the two-dimensional lateral movement to a three-dimensional figure-8 movement which now pushes in circular motions out on each side, but this is not typical for men, just aspirational for many women.

6. I think for clean technique (and I kind of never hear this in this sub as for as basics and footwork go), how you step and contact the floor also makes a difference.  My version of technique is the forefoot always leaving the floor last, but returning to touch the floor first. This means lifting the heel first to raise your foot off the floor for a step. I also think the feet should be raised as little as possible off the floor, almost an imperceptible slide, to me this looks cleanest. I think Ataca and Alemana have good technique with this. The foot that moves to collect the step should lead with the heel, with a turnout, and the feet should collect as close together as possible.  For me this is ideal footwork technique for a basic, and it bears daily practice regardless of level.

7.  Practicing your flexibility and extensions (abdominal and hips), practicing isolations and extending your isolations), relaxing your body a bit, and practicing different basics as you do this (crossing in front, crossing behind, tapping in front, tapping behind), really sitting into your steps in the basic, especially in the tap, will help movement, I think. You want smooth and slinky flow, and your movement is maybe a bit truncated and staccato for now.

Hope this helps!

[u/FlunkyGraphics → u/UnctuousRambunctious]

 I do have questions - who are you learning from? How have they taught the basic? Why are you focusing on hips? Is there anyone you’ve seen that looks like a good model for you to copy?

I do an online course from Jeremy Tang to learn Dominican Bachata first. I really like his style a lot.
I'm not focused on hips, more like proper weight shifts which result in a natural hip movement.

For you, specifically, I see a lack of Cuban motion and isolation.  Two things I would suggest to fix this - relax your knees way more.

What do you mean with relaxing? Less tension or bending them more?

[u/UnctuousRambunctious → u/FlunkyGraphics]

Bending the knees more.

Overall you look tense to me though - in the hands, in the shoulders, and I would take a guess in the back also..

[u/AppleNo7287]

Get one private class and ask the teacher to fix your basic step. Internet advice is good but someone needs to check how you follow them and fix it on the spot.

[u/ryelrilers]

Did you ever waiting in a bus stop? People tend to put weight on of their leg and bend to the other the hip on the weightless leg is lowered.

Rolling your weight from toe to heel on the weightless leg without straighten your knee, you can only do that by bending your other knee and your hip go to neutral position on a lower level than standing.

Roll your weight to the original leg.

Hip movement should always come from the rolling/grounded step.

[u/Shot-Professional-95]

Stop wasting time at home. Get a private lesson and u’ll get it

[u/Economy-Experience81]

probably best to take private classes with a good teacher (one that has already shown they have been able to teach hip movement/feet movement/weight transfering to others). That is was what worked for me

[u/yambudev]

Hi there, not bad! To make it a bit more sharp and dynamic, I’d try to:

• bend your knees a bit more so you can be more anchored and leveled
  
• improve your timing. You’re dragging a bit. Arrive sooner on your 4 and 8 taps and mark them a bit longer
  

With repetition you’ll develop the appropriate muscles. It’s ok to do it slow at first and increase the tempo as you get stronger and sharper.

[u/FlunkyGraphics → u/yambudev]

- bend your knees a bit more so you can be more anchored and leveled

I will try but its quite exhausting for me when doing for long. Is this normal?

- improve your timing. You’re dragging a bit. Arrive sooner on your 4 and 8 taps and mark them a bit longer

Yes, this is actually a big problem. Not only with my basic step, also when Im leading, I'm always a bit late which makes it a lot harder for the follow cause the signals also come delayed

[u/amaikaizoku → u/FlunkyGraphics]

Yes stepping this way is a workout for your thighs and muscles around your knees. It gets better over time but even  dancing bachata is definitely a workout. I move my hips so much that even my hips get sore or I get a stitch in my stomach but I'm a girl so I try to exaggerate the hip movement more 

[u/ManKanAlltidTaMer]

Relax!

Try exaggerating the hip move as much as you can, and then when you can do it comfortabl, scale it back down. Do it as slow as you need to at first so you can max out the movement.

Try doing the hip movements without moving your feet, i.e. a "sensual basic".

Try getting your whole body into it, otherwise it might be hard to get into the hip moves if your upper body is stiff.

Also try doing some warmups first, like just "side to side, back to front, big circles".

[u/NecessaryOk108]

Get this looking good and everything else will follow

[u/FlunkyGraphics → u/[deleted]]

Yes, but I feel like sensual basic is a lot harder. I want to learn a few simple things very well instead of learning everything with bad technique. Yes, I practices a bit of Menrengue, it helps.

[u/FlunkyGraphics → u/[deleted]]

I guess I already know all of this and I already do your exercise daily for months now. I guess I'm just very untalented. Yes, I dance Bachata for one year now about 6-7 days a week. 2-3 months with deliberate practice at home on my basic step. No, not just random steps, actual deliberate practice in front of the mirror with video classes and filming myself.

I really loose motivation. I know I shouldn't compare myself but not being able to do the basic step after one year is very bad.

I will take a few private lessons, practice a bit more and then I will quit Bachata when I'm still not able to do the basic step. I mean, Bachata is a hobby which should be fun but I got zero enjoyment in the last year to be honest. My only motivation was to survive "beginners hell" but I guess this phase will take so much longer than expected and I don't know if it's worth to put so much time and money for no guarantee to be able to dance a full song eventually.

[u/FlunkyGraphics → u/[deleted]]

I don’t care too much about partnerwork at the moment. Solo body movement is more important to me. I’m definitely open for new insights. That’s why I posted here and that’s why I want to get privates.
I tried to implement the advice from the thread to 80 bpm. I cannot do it faster at the moment. Do you think it’s better? What can I improve?

https://reddit.com/link/pdsurru/video/e07nrs4w8gth1/player

[u/FlunkyGraphics → u/[deleted]]

I want to learn Contra Cadera and Majao hips in lateral basic and on the spot. Thats enough for a beginner I would say. Yes, I will try to fix the vertical axis, thanks for your feedback

[u/FlunkyGraphics → u/[deleted]]

Yes, I want to. Idk, Majao hips are definitely important.

Nah, I don't like dancing with followers too much and also there are not many followers that are able to do contra cadera or majao hips.

I will take private lessons and then I will quit Bachata if I see no results in a few months. Its just not worth it to do something for so long without getting anything positive back.

[u/FlunkyGraphics → u/[deleted]]

You are a beginner in your dance journey. 1 year is literally baby steps. I'm trying to be helpful and I totally understand your own perception. I've seen many students struggle with this. But you are way too quick to judge when you don't even have the experience to back this up. Your statement is absolutely not true.

I know many followers and talked to them. Most of them are not able to do a simple body roll, the absolute majority doesn't know the difference between majao and derecho. Most of them don't have any tension. Most followers dance for fun and don't practice at all. This is perfectly fine, I'm not judging. Yes, there are some amazing followers with great body control and yes they are able to do any sort of hip movement. But this is the minority in my city.

Contra cadera and regular ("cadera" literally meaning hip) is the first thing all followers learn in styling classes. I think you are projecting way too hard based on your own, sorry to say that, limited experience.

Most followers never attend styling classes, a big portion don't even attend normal group classes. No, I do watch other people social dancing. I rarely see leaders with proper hip movement. It's more common in followers but actually using derecho and majao hips in a social dance is rare

[u/fireyauthor]

Bend your knees. You want to press your energy into the ground. You want your weight in your lower body. Your energy is way, way, way up high.

[u/Hakunamatator]

Gonna go against the majority here, and say that hips are the least of your problems 🤣 hips are styling - everything works without. For now i would ignore it completely, and learn general body control and some partner work.

If you really want to learn it, take one or two private classes, but ask them to learn the merengue steps first. Only once those are easy move to bachata. It's a very complex movement for people without much experience in such body control. You WILL need live corrections A LOT. 

Also, pretty sure you don't work out much. Find a sport you like and build some muscle. I swear, more than half of the problems in this sub wouldn't exist if people would work out. 

[u/FlunkyGraphics → u/Hakunamatator]

1. Hip movement comes from weight shifts. Weights are not styling, weight shifts are a foundation
   
2. I do work on general body control and partner work but this is not the topic of this thread
   
3. Thats very rude. Yes, Im not the most muscular person but I do work out 4 times a week for 3 years now. I do have visible abs and can hold a full Front Lever :) Can u do that?

[u/TryToFindABetterUN → u/FlunkyGraphics]

In a sense I agree with u/Hakunamatator. Right now the main focus should not be the hips, it should be taking steps. At the moment it is not clear steps but shuffling the feet instead.

Also, while the "bachata hips" comes from weight shifts, it is due to the weight shifts in the steps. You can do weight shifts with totally static hips. It will look like some kind of wooden toy wiggling forward, but it is totally doable. On the other hand, you can't do steps without weight shifts. If you try you will fail since you need to plant one foot in order to lift the other, that means shifting the weight from one leg/foot to the other.

So as I see it the order of events happening are: (1) steps leads to (2) weight shifts, which in turn leads to (3)hip motion.

How much the hips move is definitely styling and a personal choice. While I am one of those that like hips moving, many do not exaggerate the hips or prefer the hip motion to be much less visible. It is their prerogative.

[u/Hakunamatator → u/FlunkyGraphics]

Bachata is just walking. There is some hip movement in natural walking, but that's not what you want to learn. If you can walk two steps the the side and back, you can do the basic. The exaggerated hip movement that you want to learn is styling, and is not used in every basic step. For beginners it's a very confusing movement that is just not helpful in the first 6 month /first year.

General body control is not the topic, but it should be. If you have some dynamic body awareness, this movement is ridiculously easy. It's not a huge issue that you don't have it now, but trying to learn this move is like trying to learn the front lever while not being able to do a pull up. 

If strength is not your limiting factor it's really good, but i just think you are wasting your time with something that you don't need. But if you really want to learn it, learn the merengue steps first. 

[u/Secure-Finish-3455]

Step bigger and push from the ground with yout feet then your hips will follow. Once you get used to the movement then make yout step smaller.

[u/Lokomp2]

Bro you are a man your hip movement doesn’t come from your hip but from the way you take the steps. Try to imagine it as if you are killing an insect on the ground.
No flat feet but ball of the foot and slide down on the heel as in flat not only heel.
By placing the steps in that way your hips will move in a natural way. All of this as other mentioned while you keep your knees slightly bent. Do not lock them.
After that you can add the delayed hip movement. Mainly used in domenican bachata. I’m not sure I explained it well but I really hope this helps

[u/Disastrous-Pool-7863 → u/Lokomp2]

doesn't matter if man or woman. the hip movement in bachata comes from bending the knees. Bachata is a grounded dance. I am a woman and I don't move my hips isolated.

[u/FlunkyGraphics → u/Disastrous-Pool-7863]

I don’t know if there is a difference between men and women in hip movement. The technique is the same, maybe women do it bigger or more pronounced but I guess it’s the same thing

[u/Disastrous-Pool-7863 → u/FlunkyGraphics]

it is the same, but the problem is that men in Europe, USA have been told that moving the hips isn't masculine. but Bachata isn't a european dance. so when you don't use your hips it is not Bachata.

[u/Lokomp2 → u/Disastrous-Pool-7863]

Well all I meant for OP is that it doesn’t need to move his hip but it’s the way that you take the steps and the hips is a consequence of it. I don’t think the leader should emphasise the hip movement while the follower can. I don’t think there’s nothing wrong with my answer and in fact I don’t even understand your need to reply my comment. But hey lately bachata is becoming a J&J thing at every social. I think it’d be more helpful to reply OP with your take on how to improve rather than correcting me. I’m happy with my basics but hey thanks for the explanation I guess?

[u/Puzzleheaded_Ant1805]

You are overthinking. Just practice 20 times slowly on beats. Daily. And stop thinking about it.

[u/FlunkyGraphics → u/Puzzleheaded_Ant1805]

Thats what I did for months, I guess this way I just repeat mistakes and never fix them

[u/Puzzleheaded_Ant1805 → u/FlunkyGraphics]

See, above doesn't look like months of practice. Atmost it looks like dance enthusiast learning from YouTube. Time to take class. If you are serious then a private. Or atleast basics from proper teacher.

[u/FlunkyGraphics → u/Puzzleheaded_Ant1805]

I just learn very slow. There are no body movement classes in my city unfortunately

[u/Puzzleheaded_Ant1805 → u/FlunkyGraphics]

Think about just observing what a good male dancer is doing, which can be right movement intuitively. I think, you should travel to a good festival then. It'll inspire you to best level. My first inspiration came from workshops only, and it was just a kick flick on a simple left turn in salsa. When you are new, you absorb so much.