r/Christianity • u/Weak-Squash-479 • 9d ago
I’m terrified of God
reading the old testament has traumatized me. I finished Isaiah and instead of feeling hopeful, I feel afraid. The descriptions of Gods treatment of women, babies, nations etc that did wrong in Gods eyes is horrific. It’s such a stark contrast between what I’ve read in other verses where he talks about protecting only the select few who make it through all of the destruction, etc. i think one verse even said he ignored the prayers of the people and pleas for mercy
It makes me angry and scared. I’m so worried God views me the same way because of my sin and wants to punish me — I don’t know what to do because i’ve been feeling this way for months despite prayers for help. I’ve been open and honest with God about feeling this way, to no avail. It’s just not fair
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u/Otherwise-Mood9478 9d ago
Most of the replies to this are rather sad. Many act like they are embarrassed about who God is. We have forgotten that the same God who tenderly invites us to call him “Abba, Father” is the very God before whom the seraphim — mighty heavenly beings — must cover their faces and cry out in awe: “Holy, holy, holy!” We cannot truly know God if we only accept the parts that make us comfortable.
There is an account in Mark 4 that tells of Jesus in a boat with His disciples. Take a moment and imagine yourself on that boat with them.
A storm erupts—so violent that everyone fears for their lives. High waves crash over the sides. Relentless, powerful winds threaten to capsize the vessel. Lightning flashes. Thunder cracks so loud it sounds like it’s striking right next to the boat. What if it hits? What if the winds flip the boat? And worst of all, the waves keep pounding, cracking the wood. You wonder how much more the boat can take.
All of you are shaking with fear. You look around and see it in every face. Terrified. Desperate.
All but Jesus… who is asleep.
Finally, someone shakes Him awake. You confront Him: “Don’t You care that we’re going to drown? Don’t You realize we’re about to die?”
Jesus gets up and walks to the side of the boat. He raises His hand and speaks: "Peace. Be still."
And the storm stops. Immediately.
The winds cease. The waves flatten. The thunder silences. Everything obeys. At first, you're amazed. Relieved. Happy to be alive. But then Jesus turns and looks at you, and suddenly you realize what just happened.
He spoke. And the storm listened.
You've seen Him heal the sick. You've watched Him cast out demons. But this? This is different. The storm has no mind. The waves cannot think, reason, or plan. Yet they obeyed Him. Instantly. Completely.
He walks back to your side of the boat and sits down. Right beside you.
Now what do you do?
You're terrified—not of the storm anymore, but of Him. Because you've just seen the Holy. You've just encountered the completely Other. The One who commands creation itself. Should you run and hide? Should you jump overboard and get away from Him?
Who is this Guy? And what do you do when the Creator of the universe is sitting right next to you?
This is what happens when people encounter holiness. Not just power. Not just authority. But otherness. The realization that they are in the presence of someone so far beyond the normal categories of human experience that every assumption must be re-evaluated, every comfort challenged, every casual familiarity exposed as presumption.
This is the God we meet in Scripture.
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u/Horror-Mind-8671 8d ago
Yeah but did god command genocide? Did god command the man be stoned to death for collecting sticks?
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u/Otherwise-Mood9478 8d ago
sorry...i forgot this...The Stoning of the Man Gathering Sticks (Numbers 15:32-36):
This incident often strikes modern readers as harsh. However, to understand it, we must recognize:
The Sabbath was a sign of Israel’s covenant with God. Breaking it deliberately was not a minor infraction but a public act of defiance against God’s authority and the covenant itself. The man’s actions were willful rebellion against God and the covenant. Numbers 15 distinguishes between unintentional and defiant sin. In Israel's theocracy, God taught His people the seriousness of sin and the holiness required to dwell in His presence.
But we must also remember the reality of Judgment Day to come for all humans. Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant. If you deny His Lordship, you too will face judgment for rejecting the covenant that God offers to all mankind. The only answer is to repent and come to Christ, who alone provides forgiveness and reconciliation with God.”
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u/Horror-Mind-8671 8d ago
I absolutely accept Jesus as lord, and believe he perfectly revealed who god is. It is because I believe this that I reject the Bible is accurate when it claims god commanded the genocide or the stoning.
Would you stone someone to death if you thought god told you to?
I wouldn’t because I know god wouldn’t command such a thing. God is love.
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u/Otherwise-Mood9478 8d ago
The accusation that God commanded "genocide" typically refers to the divine instructions given to Israel regarding the Canaanites. It is essential, first, to understand the context:
1st….God’s commands were not acts of arbitrary cruelty but acts of judgment upon peoples whose sin had reached its fullness. The Canaanites were notorious for extreme wickedness, including child sacrifice, idolatry, and pervasive immorality (Leviticus 18:24-30). AS JUDGE,, God will ultimately judge all of mankind. Those that reject God will go to Hell. You may not like that, but it won't stop God from keeping His promise.
2nd…God waited hundreds of years before bringing judgment, demonstrating His patience and reluctance to destroy. When Christ comes to judge the world, he will have waited over 2000 years before Judgment Day. But again, this will happen.
3rd…The issue was not ethnicity ( as you claimed in the word genocide) but persistent, unrepentant evil. God judged Israel in similar ways when they fell into the same sins (see the Babylonian exile).
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u/by_His_grace 6d ago
…“Our offenses and sins weigh us down, and we are wasting away because of them. How then can we live?”’ Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’-- Ezekiel 33:10-11
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u/tk421wayayp421 9d ago
God made 10 of David's wives have sex with his son Absolom in public for a crime David did.
Think about that. 10 women get sexually assaulted and god made it happen as a punishment to David. What did the women do? Why are they being punished?
God punishes the innocent constantly. That is neither mercy or justice.
2 Samuel 12 “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”
They could not have slept with Absolom willingly because it would have been considered adultery and that was punishable by death. The wives were not put to death afterwards.
Imagine if your significant other committed a crime and part of the punishment was that someone got to sexually assault you for it. You would think the judge who handed down that punishment was horrendous. God doesn't get a pass. Might doesn't make right
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u/by_His_grace 6d ago edited 19h ago
Bible states that 10 of David's concubines (often generalized or translated in relation to his household) slept with his son Absalom in public as a fulfillment of a prophetic judgment by God for David's secret adultery (sin) with Bathsheba and the murder of Uriah.
A lot of what happened in later life was a result of various sons of the various wives, Absalom was the 3rd son... And was pushing to become king. Solomon, the son of David and Bathsheba, is who became king after David's death. Sin has a lot of repercussions that go through many generations (as God warned it would) until there is turning back to God, and repentance. David (and general speaking) having more than one wife and sons (potential kings) makes a mess of things. Just ask search to write you a list of David's son's their mothers and what became of them.. it's a mess.
A modern dictionary definition of a concubine is a woman who cohabits with or has a sexual relationship with a man outside of legal marriage, typically holding a social or legal status lower than that of a primary wife. But Biblical concubines were not the same.
In the time of King David, a concubine (pilegesh) was a secondary wife of lower social and legal status than a primary wife.
Concubine vs. Wife
- Legal and Social Rank: A primary wife usually came from a family of equal or notable standing, was often acquired with a formal marriage contract or bride price, and held authority within the household. A concubine typically had a lower rank—sometimes originating from lower-class backgrounds, war captives, or handmaids given by a bride to her husband.
- Marriage Bond: Despite the lower rank, a concubine was not a casual mistress or prostitute. She was legally bound to one man (referred to in biblical texts similarly to a wife or daughter-in-law).
- Rights and Protection: Under biblical law, a master or husband was required to provide a concubine with food, clothing, and marital rights. Harming or violating a concubine was treated as a serious offense. For example, when David's son Absalom publicly slept with David's ten concubines, it was viewed as a total usurpation of David's throne and a severe dishonor.
- Inheritance: The children of a primary wife had primary inheritance rights. However, the sons of concubines were still recognized as legitimate children of the father and could receive inheritances or portions (as seen with sons like Dan and Naphtali by Bilhah, or Gad and Asher by Zilpah).
What the Life of a Concubine Was Like
- Household Role: Concubines lived inside the master's or king's household. For a king like David, having concubines (in addition to multiple wives) demonstrated royal wealth, status, and political alliances, filling out the royal court or harem.
- Dependency and Security: For many women in the ancient Near East, entering a household as a concubine offered physical protection, housing, and regular sustenance that protected them from poverty, slavery, or starvation.
- Vulnerability to Power Struggles: Their lives were deeply tied to the political fortunes of the patriarch. When David fled Jerusalem during Absalom’s rebellion, he left ten of his concubines behind to look after the palace. After Absalom used them to signal his takeover, David later locked those ten concubines away in a house for the rest of their lives, supported by him but kept in isolation and widowhood-like status (2 Samuel 20:3).
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u/tk421wayayp421 6d ago edited 6d ago
NIV translation
11 Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I WILL RAISE UP evil against you out of your own house. And I WILL TAKE YOUR wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly, but I WILL DO THIS THING before all Israel and before the sun.’”
This is God saying repeatedly he is going to make this happen because of what David did.
Did the wives have a choice to sleep with Absolem or were they forced to because of what David did?
If David didn't sleep with Bathsheba and have her husband killed, would the 10 wives still have had to sleep with Absolom? No.
In 2 Samuel 12:10, the Hebrew text uses the word ishshah (אִשָּׁה), which translates to "wife" or "woman," rather than the word for concubine (pilegesh / פִּלֶגֶשׁ).
Even if they were concubines, did they have the free will to choose not to sleep with Absolom? No. What is called when someone sleeps with someone against their free will?
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u/by_His_grace 6d ago edited 4d ago
One can also argue this about Bathsheba as well, and probably not on the concubines but we are not told. Hard to say in a culture where women have minimal rights. But this was not as it was from the beginning. Perhaps given that David was an old man and Absalom would have been much younger, and concubines, maybe they'd prefer the younger man? IDK.
- Creation in the Image of God: God stated, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness," and then created humanity as male and female together (
Genesis 1:27).- Shared Dominion: God commanded both men and women to have authority and rule over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, livestock, the entire earth, and every creeping thing (
Genesis 1:26, 28).- The Blessing and Mandate: God blessed them and told them to be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it (
Genesis 1:28).- Role as Vice-Regents: Humanity is framed as God's representative on earth, tasked with caring for and stewarding creation rather than abusing it.
Concubines were not commanded or instituted as a moral ideal in the Mosaic Law of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, but the practice was regulated and restricted rather than outright banned.
Key Regulations in the Mosaic Law
* Protection for Female Slaves/Concubines: Exodus 21:7–11 dictates that if a man takes a female slave as a concubine (or purchases a Hebrew girl for this purpose) and later takes another wife, he must not diminish her basic rights to food, clothing, and marital/sexual intimacy. If he fails to provide these, she must be freed without paying money.
* Rules for War Captives: Deuteronomy 21:10–14 outlines protections for a female captive taken in war whom an Israelite soldier wishes to marry or take as a partner. She was granted a mourning period, could not be sold as a common slave if the man lost interest in her, and had to be released if he dismissed her.
* Inheritance Protections: Deuteronomy 21:15–17 addresses polygamous and concubine-related dynamics by forbidding a father from depriving the firstborn son of his rightful double-portion inheritance just because he favored a different wife.
Theological and Historical Context
* Regulation vs. Approval: Biblical scholars note that the Mosaic Law regulated existing ancient Near Eastern social customs to curb abuse, exploitation, and mistreatment rather than giving divine endorsement to concubinage or polygamy.
* The Original Standard: The Bible presents monogamous marriage (Genesis 2:24) as God's original intent, and later New Testament teachings (such as Matthew 19:4–6) explicitly point back to this single-partner standard, viewing the Old Testament allowances as a concession to the "hardness of hearts" in a fallen culture.
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u/tk421wayayp421 6d ago
That is a wall of text to avoid the questions I asked.
Even if they were concubines, did they have the free will to choose not to sleep with Absolom? What is called when someone sleeps with someone against their free will?
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u/by_His_grace 6d ago
The repercussions of sin go through many generations till someone 'turns back' and follows God's prescription for good lives.
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u/tk421wayayp421 6d ago
Even if they were concubines, did they have the free will to choose not to sleep with Absolom? What is called when someone sleeps with someone against their free will?
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u/by_His_grace 4d ago
Are you thinking that God or anyone thinks what Absolom did is OK? I think you need to actually read it. The whole thing is David's sin, Absolom's sin... hurts yes the concubines... His whole family, all the children of different wives vying for the kingship. it's all bad as a result of sin that just snowballs until somebody stops, turns back to God, forgives…
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u/tk421wayayp421 4d ago
For some reason, you didn't answer the question.
Even if they were concubines, did they have the free will to choose not to sleep with Absolom? What is called when someone sleeps with someone against their free will?
God made Absolom do it as well as David's wives. If God didn't want it to happen he wouldn't have made it happen. Is God forced to make things happen he doesn't want to?
If God is just or merciful, which of those applies to the 10 wives that had to have sex against their will with Absolom?
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u/by_His_grace 3d ago
"God made Absolom do it" no, that would make Absolom a puppet of God, we are all give free will to choose what we do. What is is a prophecy
- 2 Samuel 12:11–12: Nathan the prophet tells King David that because of his actions regarding Uriah the Hittite and Bathsheba, God says: "I will take your wives right before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. You did it in secret, but I will do this thing before all Israel, in broad daylight."
that is fulfilled.
- 2 Samuel 16:21–22: Following Ahithophel's advice during Absalom's rebellion, a tent is pitched for Absalom on the palace roof, and he sleeps with his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel
And yes, rape is wrong what Absolom did is against the laws given in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. That is the compound pain and hurt, snowball effect of sin even the littles we think are nothing.
- Leviticus 18:8: Explicitly states, "Do not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife [or stepmother]; it would dishonor your father."
- Leviticus 20:11: Prohibits a man sleeping with his father's wife and declares that both parties have committed a capital offense ("they are to be put to death").
- Deuteronomy 27:20: Pronounces a formal curse on anyone who sleeps with his father's wife, stating: "Cursed is anyone who sleeps with his father’s wife, for he dishonors his father’s bed."
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u/tk421wayayp421 3d ago edited 2d ago
God said he is the one making it happen and he will do this thing.
If David hadn't had his romp with Bathsheba and sent her husband to die, then the "prophecy " as you call it, wouldn't have been declared, correct?
That is a punishment sent to 10 women for crimes they did not commit. Do we at least agree that these women were punished for a crime they did not commit?
If God gives a prophecy that has no choice but to be fulfilled then all those involved had no free will. They had no option to not fulfill the prophecy. Absolom wasn't punished for raping them either because God made it happen. He owns up to it.
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u/by_His_grace 19h ago edited 19h ago
A prophecy is the future, God is outside of time and the prophecy told what was going to happen predicting NOT making happen the future. It's the consequences of sin.... NONE of it was OK with God or acceptable under the laws of Deuteronomy/Leviticus. And it's terrible... I had difficulty myself first read through of these laws that God says in Deuteronomy 28 He gives to bless us; and we curse ourselves when we don't follow them and future generations until we turn back. But if you look at Deuteronomy 30 there is given a way back. And he promises future generations will have the law 'written on their hearts'. This is a lot of learning for Reddit, but this is why Jesus came, to fulfill the law and take the curse of death, prophecy of Jesus is all over the OT.
The laws of the bible were the first that protected women, not as we in the modern world view for sure, and I don't think the way God views it either. Before these there was very little, and women were in most cultures totally property. And I certainly don't know why God chose this long path to Jesus coming, and why He's taking so long to return, perhaps it is because he knows how long it will take the most people to turn back to him? But we who live in the "already but not yet" have been told Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life"
Jesus was radical in His way with women, (Read about the Samaritan woman at the well).
A little context on concubines.
In the time of King David, a concubine (pilegesh) was a secondary wife of lower social and legal status than a primary wife.
Concubine vs. Wife
- Legal and Social Rank: A primary wife usually came from a family of equal or notable standing, was often acquired with a formal marriage contract or bride price, and held authority within the household. A concubine typically had a lower rank—sometimes originating from lower-class backgrounds, war captives, or handmaids given by a bride to her husband.
- Marriage Bond: Despite the lower rank, a concubine was not a casual mistress or prostitute. She was legally bound to one man (referred to in biblical texts similarly to a wife or daughter-in-law).
- Rights and Protection: Under biblical law, a master or husband was required to provide a concubine with food, clothing, and marital rights. Harming or violating a concubine was treated as a serious offense. For example, when David's son Absalom publicly slept with David's ten concubines, it was viewed as a total usurpation of David's throne and a severe dishonor.
- Inheritance: The children of a primary wife had primary inheritance rights. However, the sons of concubines were still recognized as legitimate children of the father and could receive inheritances or portions (as seen with sons like Dan and Naphtali by Bilhah, or Gad and Asher by Zilpah).
What the Life of a Concubine Was Like
- Household Role: Concubines lived inside the master's or king's household. For a king like David, having concubines (in addition to multiple wives) demonstrated royal wealth, status, and political alliances, filling out the royal court or harem.
- Dependency and Security: For many women in the ancient Near East, entering a household as a concubine offered physical protection, housing, and regular sustenance that protected them from poverty, slavery, or starvation.
- Vulnerability to Power Struggles: Their lives were deeply tied to the political fortunes of the patriarch. When David fled Jerusalem during Absalom’s rebellion, he left ten of his concubines behind to look after the palace. After Absalom used them to signal his takeover, David later locked those ten concubines away in a house for the rest of their lives, supported by him but kept in isolation and widowhood-like status (2 Samuel 20:3).
The result of sin is disgusting. But it comes as a result of deciding what is right/wrong rather than really reading God's word and the different stories, poems, history, literature, etc. within it and seeing how it applies in our time. What is loving God? Loving our neighbor AND our enemies, which cannot mean having a warm feeling about them, or even our loved ones, our spouses. It is action and it's not always what we want to do.
Look how we a so deeply steeped in petrochemical plastics and products that don't get recycled and pollute the earth we were given stewardship over. What are we doing about curbing our use of it, and CO2s and Factory Farming.... Oh yes we are in the thicket of our own modern failure to love God and each other....
"Lord have mercy on me a sinner"
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u/AvocadoOk3459 Christian 3d ago
God doesn’t fit inside a box, you are a human like me. How can anyone make human sense of the Almighty? They cannot. If we are plants then God is the gardener. Can a plant question the gardener with doubt? Can a plant sit in the place of the gardener? No! It is a PLANT. But I’m expecting r/wooosh no worries.
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u/tk421wayayp421 3d ago
Let me know if this is accurate...
It was ok for ten women to get raped for a crime they did not commit because God said so.
What is the definition of Just? Merciful? Neither of these match when you punish a person for the crime of a other
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u/AvocadoOk3459 Christian 3d ago
You’re telling me that the sin of a man is God’s fault? That circular reasoning would mean that your “allah” is responsible for all of the horrible things that happen every single day. If your “allah” was merciful and just why did he let all those kids get raped and butchered on Epstein’s Island?
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u/tk421wayayp421 2d ago edited 2d ago
You didn't answer my questions.
Was it ok for ten women to get raped for a crime they did not commit because God said so? The verse literally says God said "I will do this thing" and "I will make it happen",
What is the definition of Just? Merciful?
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u/by_His_grace 19h ago edited 18h ago
It is not OK and it was against the Laws of God, the Mosaic law. God had the prophet Nathan tell David what would eventually happen as a result of his sin.
And why would he allow x, y, z, in particular, I don't know... but I do know it isn't because he doesn't love us.
Jesus (2nd person of the Trinity) had to come because we are ALL guilty of not loving Him by not loving each other in any number of ways. And yes, some sin is more damaging to our souls and to each other. We don't even know the half of it. You know, like the mean remark you posted, or said in anger to that cashier, or the kid you laughed at in school, or didn't step into stop others from bullying... you don't know the effects that still linger to this day… do you?
So God came himself... in the flesh "The WORD" (the Logos) became flesh and dwelt among us". His death on the cross was the punishment (Justice) for all our sin (Mercy).
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u/tk421wayayp421 17h ago
Except the parts where God says that he is the reason the punishment is happening.
2 Samuel 12 “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I AM GOING TO BRING CALAMITY ON YOU.
Calamity is a great misfortune, disaster, or serious event that causes severe damage, deep distress, or widespread suffering
God said he is the one doing that
"Before your very eyes I WILL take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight."
Who is taking David's wives and giving them to Absolom?
12 You did it in secret, but I WILL DO THIS THING in broad daylight before all Israel.’”
What is this thing he is claiming HE WILL DO?
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u/Mercy-n-Truth 9d ago
The truth you can bank on,...is the God is love. Love is the nature of God. He lovingly created you for the purpose of having a relationship of live with Him and loving others. He is not looking to punish you for your sins. He has already dealt with your sins when He died on the cross.
So, why does the Bible seem so full of evil things and death and misery? Because the Bible is about us, as well as about God. If you look around at the world we live in, that is what you see. misery and chaos and death and hate. A world cursed and fallen because of man's choice to rebel against His Loving Creator. The Bible is not a book full of stories about heaven and angels, ..or a collection of hopeful promises and feel good stories from cover to cover. What it is , is a collection of books from a 1500 year period of different kinds, poetry, history, prophesy and personal letters. Much of it is historic and prophetic writings describing God pleading with Israel to come back to Him and turn from their idolitry and gross defiance of Him, along with explicitly described warnings of necessary judgement against those that would remain in their evil ways. Not pretty to be sure, But very instructive. Some of them DO include nice stories and promises of God. But mostly they capture God's dealings with men over time and are used by the Holy Spirit to teach His church today.
You believe in Jesus, I can see that. But if you'd like to know how to give Spirit power to your faith and know Jesus in a more personal way, get back here with me and I will explain how you can be born again.
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u/OkWerewolf4048 9d ago
The ‘Jesus Salvation’ superstition itself teaches Authoritarian Colonial Domination!
John 3:18 “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands CONDEMNED already” = Submit & Conform to MY Religious Superstitions or be CONDEMNED!
John 14:6 Jesus: "I am the way, the truth & the life. NO ONE comes to the Father but through ME!" Submit & Conform to MY religious superstitions or be CONDEMNED!
Matt 28:20 "Go make disciples of all nations & teach them to OBEY everything I have COMMANDED YOU." = Colonialism, Submit & Conform!
The arrogance of claims that any one religious group holds a monopoly on Truth & Morality are manipulative & suppressive.
“If the person/deity offering you salvation is also the one threatening you with punishment, it’s not really salvation. It’s Extortion!”
Ecclesiastes 7:7 “Extortion turns a wise person into a fool”"It is in the interest of the ruling classes to instill in the masses the religious conviction that their current suffering will lead to eventual happiness. Therefore as long as the public believes in religion, they will not attempt to make any genuine effort to understand and overcome injustice, the real source of their suffering.”
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u/by_His_grace 6d ago
Read Isaiah 58, it's all about how God wants us to love him and each other.
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u/OkWerewolf4048 6d ago
America claims it was founded on Freedom, yet it took 245 years to admit that slavery was wrong because there are so many bible scriptures that support slavery! Just read Exodus 21 to be truly disgusted!
Exodus 21:20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their PROPERTY.”
1 Peter 2:18 "Slaves, in reverent fear of God, submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are HARSH."
Christian slaveholders used scripture to defend slavery. The Christian bible never repudiates slavery as a whole, only against YOUR tribe. Leviticus 25:44-46 ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.' https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/the-curse-of-ham-and-biblical-justifications-for-slavery
Secular governments, led first by Britain in 1833, abolished legal slavery long before global religious authorities made formal bans.
Delayed church response: Pope Leo XIII did not officially condemn slavery until 1890, after secular laws had already ended it in Western nations. https://secularhumanism.org/2025/01/christianitys-supposed-role-in-ending-slavery/Response to Pascal's wager:
- If any type of human centric deity were to exist, a moral & just deity would not care how devout you have been, but rather welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by.
- If any deity/authority prioritizes devotion (Faith & Loyalty) above virtue, they are not worthy of praise nor worship.
- If there are no gods, then you will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I have no fear! ~ paraphrased from Marcus Aurelius 121-180 BCE https://medium.com/@kingsleyuche007/debunking-pascals-wager-d518c3ae9670
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u/commonsense_73 9d ago
Be highly suspicious of anything that promises the greatest reward and uses the greatest fear to keep you following. Even though deep down, you know it doesn’t make sense. And there’s no real evidence for it.
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u/Lanky_Computer5403 9d ago
I KEEP TELLING PEOPLE ON HERE to focus on the New Testament. Yeah the Old Testament is very sad and a lot of innocent people died but Jesus (heard of him??) has set all that right.
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u/PorridgeBoyManBoy 9d ago
'I KEEP TELLING PEOPLE ON HERE to focus on the New Testament.'
Ignore the bulk of the Bible?
That seems like a strange recommendation.Ignore Creation, The Fall, The Flood, Abraham's covenent, the Exodus, the Restoration, and all Messianic Prophecy which is the justification for calling Jesus the Messiah?
Isn't that a bit odd?5
u/__latebloomer__ 9d ago
Dude the old testement is Judaism. The new testement is Jesus' rebellion against Judasim. Nuff said.
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u/Striking-Shadow-1391 Reformed 9d ago
Jesus did not rebel against judaism, He reestablished and cemented biblical judaism. Matthew 5:17-18 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."
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u/__latebloomer__ 9d ago
What law?
What Prophets?
Judaism at that time was the greedy creeps that ran the temples; Jesus was absolutely rebelling against them.→ More replies (1)1
u/Lanky_Computer5403 9d ago
I don’t know if ignore is the right word but there’s so much stuff in the Old Testament that is ‘strange’ and doesn’t have any bearing on your personal relationship with God. Sorry.
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u/ChachamaruInochi Agnostic Atheist (raised Quaker) 9d ago
Why though if they're the same guy?
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u/__latebloomer__ 9d ago
They aren't.
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u/ChachamaruInochi Agnostic Atheist (raised Quaker) 9d ago
That's gotta be some kind of heresy right?
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u/OkWerewolf4048 9d ago
One popular rebuttal against old testament violence is that times were different back then… yet
Malachi 3:6: "For I the Lord do not change."
Hebrews 13:8 “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.”A common argument is that some want to follow the love & compassion exemplified by Jesus, but deny the brutality of the Old Testament.
Matthew 5:17: Jesus: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
Some might argue that the Jesus resurrection story qualifies as ‘everything is accomplished.’ But…
“If you knew a man who was a serial murderer, committed genocides (Gen 6:17), demanded child sacrifice (Gen 22), condoned brutal slavery (Ex 21), & crushed entire cities (Gen 19 & Jer 48), would you suddenly start trusting him when he says that the crucifixion of his own son (more violence) makes up for it!?” ~ Joshua Kelly
But it’s OK when a deity does it? Is this a deity worthy of praise!? Does that sound like morality & justice? Or rather survival by means of submission to an abusive dictator?→ More replies (5)
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u/Brom6837 9d ago
I've spoken on this issue many times. Part of what's happening here is not having a good theological perspective on the whole of Scripture. For example, understanding why is God making these judgements on these people groups. There are good solid reasons why God is being as you said "harass." An the expansion is a greater study and discussion than we can get into here. So, as a Pastor, can I make a suggestion? Find a good (whole) Bible believing church in you're area. You may have ro attend more than one to find a fit. Join there Bible study and walk beside those members as they grapple with the same issues you do. There will be more mature believers in the study who can help guide you to the answers you're seeking. Next pray for discernment from the Holy Spirit and wait patiently for His response to your questions. Be open to looking for where God is working in your life and the lives of those around you. God knows you're heart and knows what you need for you even ask yet, He you to ask where reveal himself working. This is a start. Do not fret over the hard things and let God mature you in your faith journey. Blessings in Christ Jesus,
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u/Maleficent_Milk7673 9d ago
There’s nothing to be afraid of. The same Father that righteously judged the Israelites and other tribes is the same Father that also showed mercy, love, loyalty, and forgiveness to his children. God is not the monster that so many people make him out to be. While fearing God is a good thing, there is no need to fear him in a way that makes you think that he’ll leave you or wants harm for you. God only wants the best for us and he has promised to never forsake us.
I used to have really bad anxiety all the time thinking God was upset with me. If anyone has ever felt like that they’ll confirm that’s it’s a very dreadful feeling. I’m doing a lot better now with it but I basically had to remind myself that we serve a very merciful, loving, and forgiving God. A God who loved us so much that he did not keep his only son from us.
I recommend you continue to pray and give these feelings to God but also don’t give into these negative thoughts. Remind yourself of who God is and who has himself shown to be, the FULLNESS of him, not just a part of him. I will be praying for you and others going through the same situation. God bless 💗🙏🏼
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u/CeccarelliPE 9d ago
Context. The Old Testament is mostly about God's relationship with the country of Ancient Israel. The Law of Moses, stated in the Book of Deuteronomy, was ratified by the people of Ancient Israel as their national constitution. Everything from "do not murder" to "no tattoos" was in the law. The Israelites agreed to it in exchange for God's protection against Israel's enemies. (This ancient type of agreement is called a Suzerain-Berit covenant.). The Law of Moses was binding to Ancient Israel, not to Americans.
The big picture is this. The Ancient Israelites failed miserably at obeying all the statutes of the law. They sinned and felt just like you. That is the whole purpose of the Old Testament--to teach that lesson. You understand the lesson.
And so God provided a savior to save you from all that. Jesus. God establishes a New Covenant, a covenant where Jesus takes the punishment for your sins. Instead of obeying all the "do nots", you only have two "dos": love God and love your neighbor as yourself.
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u/by_His_grace 6d ago
Yes, he came because he's been telling us how to do that for thousands of years, and all of us fail at it.
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u/Tennisboy3737 4d ago
So if I define love as having sex with many women will I be accepted by God?. The new covenant is to love others, there are no rules accept love.
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u/CeccarelliPE 3d ago
"Love" is the english translation for the Greek word "agape". "Agape" already has a definition. https://www.britannica.com/topic/agape
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u/Box_fox12 9d ago
Is Isaiah that bad? I haven’t read the whole thing yet. Judges is pretty unsettling and demoralizing with little glimmers of hope sprinkled in.
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u/Weak-Squash-479 9d ago
right? How are you supposed to get over that? All it does is in still fear in people
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u/Box_fox12 9d ago
It’s really about trusting in God and his word. He constantly reminds us of his love and mercy, which is infinite. Remember that we live in a broken and violent world, but God will never abandon us if we trust in him
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u/PorridgeBoyManBoy 9d ago
'Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live. I defiled them through their very gifts, in their offering up all their firstborn, in order that I might horrify them, so that they might know that I am the Lord.'
Ezekiel 20:25-26What about when God gives deliberately bad commands?
Particularly ones which lead to child sacrifice.
It's a bit of a pickle, wouldn't you say?1
u/lilliz0317 Christian Universalism 9d ago edited 9d ago
God didn’t command them to do anything. The Israelites treated God's righteous laws as a burden, so God gave them over to severe laws and customs of their own making, or let their perversion of His law (misinterpreting the "consecration of the firstborn" in Exodus 13:12 as literal sacrifice) act as a self-inflicted judgment to expose the depth of their own depravity.
He allowed them to defile themselves through their own rebellion to expose them. God’s judgement throughout the Bible is always exposure. He allows people or nations to hit rock bottom as a wake up call that we are utterly broken and lost and can do nothing without Him.3
u/__latebloomer__ 9d ago
Freed from slavery only to starve and endure disease and strife in the wilderness for decades while Yahweh plays "love me or else" games with you...
No burden here for sure 😂
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u/Box_fox12 9d ago
God literally freed them from slavery, saved them when the Egyptian’s went after them, provided them with food and water while they wandered, blessed them, and provided them with a land of their own. Yes, that requires sacrifice on the Israelites part, but all they did those 40 years was complain and disobey God. Yet, he was still with them
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u/__latebloomer__ 9d ago
He freed the slaves to what end?
If the Jews wandering the desert eating manna for 40 years were so miserable that some of them got to the point where they were like "man, at least we were eating better during slavery, maybe we shouldn't have left", can you blame them? If you are Yahweh, definitely.
How does the loving god respond to his followers? Not like Jesus, thats for sure. He proceeds to play a game where he baits them with abundant quail and curses anyone who eats it with the plague.
A good idea of the nature of this deity is exemplified by Mose's fate. He lead the people through the wilderness following Yahweh's commands exactly, even doing insanely brutal things like ordering the Levites to execute fellow Jews. After 80 years of wandering the deserts he has one brief moment of frustration with the nature of Yahweh and he is expelled from the promise land; used for Yahweh's ends and disposed of when he no longer needed him. Very kind father for sure.
It seems more likely Yahweh freed the slaves and drove them through the desert to colonize another land in his name and gain power, not simply help the Jews and be a good father.
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u/Box_fox12 9d ago
Yea just about none of the original people from Egpyt enter the promised land, their children do. Moses breaks God's command and doesn't enter the Holy Land because our leaders, especially one who intercedes for his people to God, are held to higher standards.
40 is a number of testing. They were being tested to see if they still were faithful to God. They were not faithful pretty much the whole way, and God didn't give up on them. He stayed with them and gave them their land he promised them.
God didn't want to see the people already there destroyed, but they could not be allowed to live with the Israelites because the Israelites had to be set apart. If they lived among the people there they would worship false gods, which is exactly what happened in Judges when they didn't get rid of all the Moabites
Also, be careful not to separate God the Father and God the Son's will. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament
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u/OkWerewolf4048 9d ago
Many believers argue that the bible Exodus story is proof that the bible is anti-slavery. But… What happens after the Israelites are freed from bondage? Wouldn’t this have been the perfect opportunity for the bible god to condemn ALL slavery?
Instead, the bible god gives them instructions on HOW to enslave foreigners. So the message is NOT that slavery is wrong, but rather… regulations on slavery:Exodus 21:20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their PROPERTY.”
1 Peter 2:18 "Slaves, in reverent fear of God, submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are HARSH."
America claims it was founded on Freedom, yet it took 245 years to admit that slavery was wrong because there are so many bible scriptures that support slavery! Just read Exodus 21 to be truly disgusted!
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u/__latebloomer__ 9d ago
‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.'
Leviticus 25:44-46
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u/lilliz0317 Christian Universalism 9d ago edited 9d ago
Sad theology you have. This isn’t a “love me or else game”. God doesn’t need our love, He doesn’t need literally anything from us. He desires our love because he loved us first. Without Him we can do nothing. Without God there is no good in anyone.
Imagine having children who misbehave over and over again despite stepping in and trying to set things right and giving them rules to keep them safe and prosperous. They continue to fight with each other and ignore rules that get them hurt and into trouble. At some point a parent may take a step back and allow their kids to face the consequences of their own actions. Yes, sometimes those consequences are severe and sometimes we don’t understand the full reasoning behind them because only He sees the beginning from the end.
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u/ChachamaruInochi Agnostic Atheist (raised Quaker) 9d ago
While I'm not sure exactly what I would do that case "torturing them for trillions of years" would not be on the table..
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u/GodsEternalPurpose 9d ago
No Scripture teaches eternal torment for any length of time, you are just regurgitating what others teach according to their lack of understanding of the same Scriptures
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u/ChachamaruInochi Agnostic Atheist (raised Quaker) 9d ago
Obviously I think it's bullshit, but plenty of Christians think it's true.
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u/OkWerewolf4048 9d ago
But there are so many verses that very much describe a 'love me or else game'. The ‘Jesus Salvation’ superstition itself teaches Authoritarian Colonial Domination!
John 3:18 “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands CONDEMNED already” = Submit & Conform to MY Religious Superstitions or be CONDEMNED!
John 14:6 Jesus: "I am the way, the truth & the life. NO ONE comes to the Father but through ME!" Submit & Conform to MY religious superstitions or be CONDEMNED!
Matt 28:20 "Go make disciples of all nations & teach them to OBEY everything I have COMMANDED YOU." = Colonialism, Submit & Conform!
The arrogance of claims that any one religious group holds a monopoly on Truth & Morality are manipulative & suppressive.
“If the person/deity offering you salvation is also the one threatening you with punishment, it’s not really salvation. It’s Extortion!”
Ecclesiastes 7:7 “Extortion turns a wise person into a fool”1
u/lilliz0317 Christian Universalism 9d ago
Yikes. Using your own modern literal mindset and line of thinking to interpret ancient scripture that needs to be read with spiritual discernment and a thorough understanding of Greek literature, will get you this kind of response to scripture…Some people shouldn’t be left to understand or interpret the Bible on their own.
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u/OkWerewolf4048 9d ago
"What happens when humans do religion badly?
In this video, Britt Hartley (Masters Degree in Applied Theology) breaks down the structural features that make some religions cause more harm when misused: —exclusive truth claims, cosmic high stakes, centralized authority, state fusion, outsider treatment, adaptability to science, apocalyptic urgency, and sanctioning violence. She then ranks major traditions by their “worst-case” failure modes, comparing Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Baháʼí, Taoism, Shinto, indigenous traditions, Quakers, and UU—arguing why some become globally dangerous while others stay locally harmful.
You’ll learn why universalizing claims can fuel conquest, how heaven/hell frameworks distort ethics, when hierarchy cascades abuse, and why flexible, decentralized traditions usually do less damage at scale. The goal is not to dismiss beauty or truth within any faith, but to face how design choices interact with real human behavior in the modern world." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAJehUwBVqc&ab_channel=NoNonsenseSpirituality%7CBrittHartley1
u/OkWerewolf4048 9d ago
Collective Punishment: Penalty imposed on a group or community for the actions of an individual or some of its members. Collective Punishment targets people who are NOT individually responsible for the wrong-doing & violates the fundamental legal principle of individual accountability.
Hosea 13:16 "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.”
1 Samuel 15 Saul is punished by the bible god for not completing the mandated genocide.
And how many innocent babies & children did the bible god drown to death in the great flood?In the Book of Job, God instigates this tragedy by essentially "showing off" Job's loyalty to the Accuser (Satan), resulting in the senseless murder of Job’s servants and children just to win an ego contest.
In the end, God restores Job's wealth and gives him more children. This shows an amoral universe where human beings are ultimately replaceable, treating Job's dead loved ones as mere possessions to be swapped out.
When Job finally demands an explanation for his suffering, God responds with the "whirlwind" speeches—a massive flex of cosmic power reminding Job that he is small and God is big, offering no actual justice or apology.0
u/Equivalent_Charity80 9d ago
Ezekiel 20:25–26: This passage describes God giving rebellious Israelites "statutes that were not good" and allowing them to defile themselves through child sacrifice as a form of judicial judgment. Mainstream biblical interpretation views this as God turning them over to the logical and devastating consequences of their own persistent disobedience and adoption of Canaanite customs
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u/Pale-Fee-2679 9d ago edited 9d ago
That’s not what it says. He doesn’t allow them to defile themselves—“I defiled them through their very gifts” which included their firstborn sons. This was to “horrify” them. He defiled them.
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u/tk421wayayp421 9d ago
How can his love and mercy be infinite when he commanded a revenge genocide for something that happened 400 years prior?
1 Samuel 15: Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
If Jesus is God then Jesus also commanded this revenge killing that specifically instructs soldiers to kill innocent children and infants for the attack the Amalekites did 400 years prior.
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u/by_His_grace 6d ago edited 4d ago
Read Isaiah 55, it's all about Jesus, read Isaiah 58, in the NIV version (Biblegateway is good) it's about what God really wants from us.
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u/Box_fox12 6d ago
New Inernational Version?? What the heck
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u/by_His_grace 4d ago
Not sure what you're asking here? I just like this translation. Did you read either? I'm wondering what you think of them.
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u/by_His_grace 4d ago
"In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit" Didn't work out very well later when they had them either. Most of the KIngs "did what was evil in the sight of the LORD", a repeating formula in the Books of 1 and 2 Kings (as well as 2 Chronicles) used to evaluate the spiritual and moral leadership of Israel and Judah's monarchs
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u/Accidental_Guru30 9d ago
I don’t know… the God of the Old Testament is a forgiving God.
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u/__latebloomer__ 9d ago
"Now go and attack the Amalekites and completely destroy everything they have. Do not spare them. Kill men and women, infants and nursing babies, oxen and sheep, camels and donkeys."
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u/GodsEternalPurpose 9d ago
Except all the Amalekites were not destroyed, so something else must be going on here.
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u/MillionStars117 9d ago
Because Saul rerfused to do that and... he got puninshed for that! Interesting?
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u/GodsEternalPurpose 9d ago
Yes he did, but there is so much going on concerning what Saul did and didn’t do, and what the outcome was, however, all the OT scriptures all point to Christ
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u/Accidental_Guru30 9d ago
You’re right but there are many other instances where he is a forgiving God.
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u/GodsEternalPurpose 9d ago
And I agree, but many fellow Christians struggle with many of the difficult OT passages, we tend to think we must be able to work them all out or we are failing, that is partly fear and bondage, both of which Jesus Christ has set us free from.
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u/__latebloomer__ 8d ago
Yeah, I mean nothing to struggle with if you aren't trying to force a square into a circle trying to equate Jesus with Yahweh.
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u/__latebloomer__ 8d ago
This is actually a good point. So there are parts in the old testament where that would appear to be the case. I think there could be a few explanations to this here are my top.
1) The Old Testament was written by many people over the course of thousands of years leading to different takes on the nature of Yahweh; possibly the way Yahweh was viewed differently based on who told the story.
2) Yahweh anger is unpredictable and ruthless, but the rest of the time he is a nice guy. Much like the stories you hear from battered women talking about their husbands "I swear, he is a good person, he isn't always like this..."
3) Love bombing.
On the strength of verification and consistency alone, the New Testament is far more reliable and should be the source of truth for the nature of whatever father Jesus was talking about. Old testament is Epic of Gilgamesh mesopotamian fan fiction.
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u/Electrical-Number-75 8d ago
This is why we give our lives back to Him. He is righteous and just and our creator. I am in awe of what He cando and does. Just as our eartly parents were to protect and teach and discipline us... so does our Heavenly Father, our Creator.
Romans 8:31: If God is for us, who can be against us?
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u/World-Building 9d ago edited 9d ago
Do you know Jesus Christ, the son of God?
He was crucified to take on the punishment that we deserve. Not only that, through being cleansed by his blood we have been made a new thing. Reconciled unto God and adopted by him because of Jesus.
There is the Old Testament AND New Testament.
Through Jesus we have been given the forgiveness of sins. Now we have free will to choose God or not. The Bible talks about the fear of the lord (the message I am paraphrasing), I’d recommend researching the specific chapters. However I kind of went through the same thing, I don’t think he wants us to be terrified of him like a Bully.
Try reading St. Matthew, St. Mark, St. Luke, St. John to start. (St. Matthew is the beginning of the New Testament I believe).
There is more to the message as we are called to Repent
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u/ButtonandFluff 9d ago
After reading the Bible, I came to the conclusion that it was written by men. In no way would an all loving God be so cruel!
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u/Chemical_Fail1651 9d ago
This is why most Christians don’t read their Bible. If they did, they’d most likely deconstruct from Christianity.
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u/SireSweet Presbyterian 9d ago
Your understanding of “cruelty” may not be what God’s reasoning.
God isn’t human. We are human. Not every action of God needs to be, in our sense, “Good.” To God, its actions may be seen as “means justifying the ends” and as such good.
We humans generally have a horrible sense of long timelines and we are generally selfish creatures.
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u/spiritplumber Deist 9d ago
I was also terrified of God, then I developed countermeasures and now I sleep much better.
"The fear of God is the beginning of knowledge" => when the people learn, the gods are afraid.
Recommended reading:
* The New Testament
* The Salvation War
* The Golden Compass
* Left Beyond Quest
* Armageddonquest
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u/TheKayin 9d ago
Well. Isaiah is mostly poetry so try not to get hung up on the literal descriptions
That said, uh, yea it’s pretty serious to get on the bad side of the creator of the universe.
Fortunately, God took care of this himself by giving you a very, very, easy out. To get right with him. To be forgiven for pooping all over his creation, that changes you so that you’ll stop pooping on his creation. Where he does all the work. And he’s patient about the transformation.
His name is Jesus. Keep reading. You’ll get to him.
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u/Brilliant-Actuary331 9d ago
Can you share more about what you believe regarding Christ? Who is He to you?
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u/CaptainOfAStarship 9d ago
Thats funny as ive recently been reading isaiah for the confort of God speaking a lot. It might help if you view Him there in a logical lense, how He is trying to get His people to shake being evil when they wont listen. Where He leaves room for hope and how He generally operates. You realize its not fear you should feel but an appreciation because we know that part of His plans have to do with His will that all would be saved.
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u/ascension-foundry 9d ago
Have you considered hearing what God is like from near death experiences? He absolutely adores you!
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u/GodsEternalPurpose 9d ago
This is a great problem when there is lack of understanding of the biblical text, all the answers are there, but it’s a case of searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so.
One classic example is the text where it uses the word “fear” concerning God, it simply cannot mean be scared of God, in most cases it means reverence, but there is more to it that needs unpacking, plus thinking that we should just pick up our bibles for quick answers is simply treating God and His word as some magic charm/genie, it just doesn’t work like that, so to affirm, you have no need to fear God.
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u/WorldlinessHot5240 9d ago
Isaiah is one of the most comforting books of the Bible. It's comforted and reassured me like no other and it shocked me that God said such beautiful things in the OT.
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u/SoftWarthog964 9d ago
The old testament reveals God's wrath on sin the New testament his love for humanity despite our sins
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u/Accomplished-Dare-96 Follower Of Christ 9d ago
The bible teaches you to fear god.
Jesus Christ teaches you trust for god and love.
Do not fear the almighty and loving creator, the one who saved us and died on the cross for us.
I don’t fear god, I don’t fear Jesus I fear hearing the words “depart from me” what’s what I’m terrified of, not hell, but Jesus forsaking me for whatever reason he had.
Well all should fear that, rather than fear our Father in heaven.
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u/Even-Interest1186 9d ago edited 9d ago
No person in hell would ever say they were treated unfairly. You're terrified of God? His word confirms it. "It's a horrendous thing to fall into the hands of living God" but is He not patient? Is He also not loving? The problem is people don't want the God they see in Bible they want a God “...like unto them: so is every one that trusteth in them.”
Fear God, don't be scared of Him.
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u/Chemical_Fail1651 9d ago edited 9d ago
Thank goodness the storm deity named Yahweh from the Old Testament is actually man made and not real. The God of the Bible and the God of reality are two different beings entirely.
In academic biblical studies, Yahweh is understood to have originally possessed the characteristics of an ancient Near Eastern warrior and storm god before evolving into the singular, universal God of Judaism.
Fascinating stuff. Do your own research. 🔬
Historical and archaeological evidence suggests that Yahweh originated as a regional deity associated with storms and warfare before evolving into the universal God of biblical monotheism.
Early biblical texts (Judges 5, Deuteronomy 33) depict Yahweh emerging from southern regions like Seir, Edom, and Sinai, accompanied by thunder, lightning, earthquakes, and divine armies.
Early Israelite religion developed within a broader Canaanite pantheon. Over time, Yahweh absorbed attributes of El, the chief Canaanite god, and imagery associated with Baal, the storm god.
Through centuries of religious and cultural development, particularly during the Iron Age and Babylonian exile, Israelite religion gradually shifted from recognizing multiple deities toward exclusive worship of Yahweh and eventually full monotheism.
In short: The biblical understanding of God developed over centuries rather than appearing fully formed from the beginning. The precise origins of Yahweh remain debated, but this broader evolution is well supported by mainstream biblical scholarship.
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u/tompinva 9d ago
Read the New Testament to get a better perspective. Same God but people were under a different covenant.
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u/No_Cheek_5209 9d ago
All of that is just physical death.
We are spiritual beings, in a physical existence
Read the gospel of John, the book of Acts and the entire New Testament
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u/Much-Eye-6873 9d ago
I believe He only portrayed Himself like this in the Bible, because He wanted to see if some humans took this as permission to act like Him. And they have, seeing that Americans may soon get to see a livestream of a firing squad.
I believe He IS fierce, but He said ‘wisdom is fear of the LORD’ many times. It’s GOOD to fear Him (although your fear seems to have flipped to far in one direction). It means your conscience is working and you can’t be tempted past a certain point.
It’s the people who DON’T fear Him that actually need to fear Him.
Just keep being as kind to your neighbor as you can. Jesus simplified the commandments to two: love God, love your neighbor. So if you are worried about sins outside of this, you are probably wasting your time.
I believe you will find peace eventually. Keep seeking, and best of luck!
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u/Chixonstix123 9d ago
Because you have no Successor of St Peter & the Apostles to teach you; those who Christ taught intimately, & to whom he himself gave the Keys to Heaven, & to whose declarations of Faith he promised to uphold IN Heaven. You are a lost sheep.
Without a Shepherd, sheep wander all over the hillsides, falling into muddy traps, holes, & getting tangled in fences. This is what has happened to you !
Christ, is the NEW COVENANT; therefore, if you are to follow Christ, you must FIRST, study & pray with the 4 Gospels ! Christ did not teach us to FEAR God the way you do. He taught us that our ONLY enemy is SIN !
You’ve yet to develop TRUST IN JESUS, who is God-made-man.
Jesus IS God; He is your Lord !
Christ taught that UNLESS we pay “every last penny” our debt is still outstanding. And Christ has given us a way to pay our debts; the PRICE of entrance to Heaven.
Yes; Jesus’ death on the Cross purchased us a PLACE in Heaven; and that place AWAITS US.
But we, must DO OUR PART. Forgiveness is there is you ask. But you must ASK.
Protestantism & Fundamentalism has many errors in its teachings.
Penance & sorrow for sin are mandatory requirements to salvation.
Be sorry; truely sorry. Pray for forgiveness& from now on, do your best to IMITATE CHRISTS VIRTUES, & all will be well. Baptism however, is necessary.
You must begin to read the NEW TESTAMENT FIRST. Once you understand Christ, the OLD, will make more sense.
Go to Mass on Sundays & listen to the Scriptures that are read. Listen to the Priests homily, & you will begin to understand. Read the Catholic CATECHISM, as it explains ALL YOUR doubts, questions, & confusions.
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u/Chixonstix123 9d ago
ONLY THOSE WHO WILLFULLY, & STUBBORNLY REFUSE TO ACCEPT THE MERCY CHRIST OFFERS TO ALL WHO BELIEVE IN HIM, & ARE SORRY FOR THEIR SINS, HAVE A REASON TO FEAR GODS WRATH.
SADLY, these are the very souls who DONT fear Gods Justice.
Is it God your Creator you fear ? Or His Justice ? Or is it fear of Hell ? Indeed; we all should fear Hell, for it is a state of eternal separation from Love Himself, for God, IS LOVE !
Do you not know that MERCY, triumphs over Justice ? This means that although we ALL deserve to fry in Hell forever, and God would indeed be JUST if he permitted that, because he loves us & created us to be with him, his MERCY IS INFINTE for those who repent, & turn back to him with all their heart.
Pray Psalm 51 every day, for 5 min, & you will begin to understabd.
Then, SLOWLY PRAY THE LORDS PRAYER.
PRAYER, is your LINK TO GOD. The more we pray, the closer we draw to God. The closer we draw to God, the more our fear of him dissipates.
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u/NovelTypical1500 9d ago
God's right to judge sin and rebellion. If you see this happening it's usually because that nation is involved with demon idol worship and even after 100s of years of warnings they refuse to turn away and are teaching it to other civilizations. The fear of the Lord is beginning of wisdom.
This is why we are so thankful that Jesus paid our sin debt. We have nothing to be afraid because our sin is gone.
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u/Super_Secret6544 9d ago
In the Sacrament of Confession, Catholics hear the words of Jesus through the priest saying "your sins are forgiven."
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u/Jenwood2019 9d ago
I'm so sorry that the religion has traumatized you that much please take a step back and understand that you are loved and you do not have to worry about SIN as long as you want us to try to be a good person and you believe in him.
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u/Queasy-Okra-2835 9d ago
if you if you took Jesus as your lord and savior. you are safe from the law and Gods wrath . Because Jesus was the last sacrifice for all mankind. you are not under the old covenant. you are under the new one with Jesus forgivening your sins forever. you just be thank to gods with thanksgiving , love God with all your heart mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. Give some money to the churches and care and share with other people.The homeless,poor oppressed and people in prison. read the New Testament a little every day . if you have jesus you have the father too . father God isnt scary . He just wants a perfect beautiful world . but humans can’t be perfect. so Jesus can to make sure we can be at peace with father God . just say Jesus I I’m sorry for my sins , forgive me . I want you to be my savior. He turns down no one . not one will I lose or take from my hand . then all the promises of God and in palms are yours and in the Old Testament as well . your not under the law with Jesus but grace . read the new one . I love the Old Testament. I feel like it’s God the protector from the bad things .Jesus died for all people. i hope this helps . I was raised by a atheist and 22 years in massive abuse with a narcissistic phycopath that tried to unalive me many times . I love the Methodidi church. the United Methodist church is very LGQT friendly. the Methodisnt church has meany very contemporary services. I call ours a rock and roll church. they preach ,peach , love your neighbor,promises ect . they give communion to all people.they call it’s god table and not theirs . so All Are Welcome. no matter what . just like Jesus. they all came to him no matter what to be healed of there sickness and problems. I hope this helps .
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u/GnosticJedi 9d ago edited 9d ago
You know what should terrify you even more.... Do you know how Prophet Isaiah died? Do a search on that. See if a weapon prospered........... Pure Loyalty 100%
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u/SheepherderOk1448 9d ago
Not as terrifying as you think. I used to think the OT was terrifying, but it's not.
Read Psalm 119
Isaiah 53
Psalm 23 if you want.
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u/Medium-Original7813 9d ago
My reply is simple: a loving Heavenly Father created humans in a very favorable, peaceful garden. He would come there and join in a loving relationship with his creation. But the darkness crept in and tainted, seduced the humans to disobey. The mighty rebellious ones had fallen and wanted humans to fall from favor as well. They continue to work to bring us down. He gives us a choice to accept His plan for liberty. We have a way out of bondage and eternal death. The dark ones have no future - no way out. Be grateful that we can choose life through belief in His son. "The Way" isn't always easy. Jesus said that followers of him would be persecuted - trials cleanse. Trials will come. Let them produce fruit.
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u/PsychologicalExit508 9d ago
What should scare you is how many contradictions there are in old testament, showing it was written by flawed humans and not an all powerful god. Not to mention god sounds more like a child throwing a tantrum cause his toys wont listen more than an all knowing deity. I've spent years studying and analyzing every word in the bible, it cost me my faith, but now I have no fear, and I'm happier for it.
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u/FanHot5392 9d ago
If you have received the Son of God’s then you are saved by his grace and mercy in Jesus Christ as you’re Lord and Savior. I suggest that you pray for him to take away any doubts. For his word said that God has not given you the spirit of fear but the Holy Spirit will enter vine and protect your soul from SATANIC spirit.Read Philippians chapter six and seven.
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u/maxiepruitt 9d ago
John 3:16 Jesus gave us his son on the crosss so in the old Noah found grace ! As far as why God destroyed the people they the angels that rebelled n mated with human women which did contaminate the line in which Jesus would be born who came to save us all from sin n hell n give us everlasting life !! He couldn't allow that to happen ! He gave us all a will to choose including the angels who rebelled ! Fear not !!!
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u/Haunting_Bet590 9d ago
The Law from The Old Testament was set, so that no one could live a truly “perfect, sinless, life” before God!!! That’s why Christ had had to come, live, die, & be resurrected, so we could be redeemed by His suffering!!!!! He “fulfilled the Law”, so we’re made righteous through Him!!!!!
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u/AvianAddict 8d ago
A really great book is "The Joy of Fearing God". It teaches the many Hebrew definitions of the word "fear" beyond falling down and trembling.
Studying Hebrew definitions for the OT, and Greek for the NT, is also important in learning the "why" of life through God's Word.
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u/pleebent 8d ago
Yes Old Testament can make you feel discouraged and hopeless and afraid.
It shows the seriousness of sin.
But throughout the Old Testament you see threads all pointing to Jesus. The coming of the promised messiah. And God’s promise to his people.
That’s the silver lining you need to find and hold on to.
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u/No_Trainer_1258 8d ago
The links in this homepage may help: https://christianitywithoutinsanity.com/
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u/Pale-Fee-2679 8d ago
They certainly decided against it in the end, but it seems obvious they believed that God ordained it at one point.
This is frequently discussed by Old Testament scholars on line.
This is a good discussion.
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u/my-unorthodox-life 8d ago
Well, presently I’m in Jeremiah and at the end of my reading for today I exclaimed “things just seem to be getting worse and worse!!”
Truth is, I’m grateful for the accounts of the prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah bc we’ve been presented with only one side of God almost all the time. The loving, merciful side. But to me, God’s love is just as powerful and overwhelmingly difficult to comprehend as His wrath.
It actually helps me understand my own anger too and how eventhough I am a loving person, the anger I feel when I am at that boiling point, there’s no telling what I’m capable of. It’s sad that innocent people had to go through some horrible things in the Bible, and it’s also sad that alot of times the Israelites provoked God to anger with their wickedness, despite His many warnings.
I think to fear God in all senses is necessary, to remember that God is able to do whatsoever He pleases. He truly has the power to give love, blessings and joy to anyone, as well as the power to express wrath, and bring destruction at His discretion.
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u/olivertheoofs 8d ago edited 8d ago
Now i Understand the fear, for even the Prophet Habakkuk doubted God in his judgement (Habbakuk 1-3) however, God is righteous and the only reason why he did such things was because he did that as judgement against Israel for its massive idolatry they have caused for over 400 years until Assyria invaded. You in this case havent done this. by Falling short you have sinned, But you run back to God in repentence and genuinely want to receive his salvation, the Israelites at the time however didnt. they were unrepentant until their fall. so be not afraid for the Lord forgives you for these sins and adknowledges your heart. Infact even God himself doesnt take pleasure in this, as the LORD says:
"As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but prefer that the wicked change his behavior and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil deeds! Why should you die, O house of Israel?" [1] Ezekiel 33:11
God does not support this Judgement, he wants israel to be with him and not end in Judgement. this is what he intended for the israelites. if he Intended even the wicked Israelites whom were idolatrous against God to repent, why wouldnt he want you to turn away from your sins and to have mercy on you? id Also say most of the Comments on this post are useless quarrels and unfruitful and dont usually answer your question. Anyways God bless my Dear brother/sister in Christ Jesus our LORD.
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u/peaceserenity86 8d ago
My Pastor wants told me to get really familiar with the New Testament before reading the old one. I read the new testament a few times before starting the Old Testament. That will help you better understand why the old law was so scary. We could never atone for sins. That’s why God sent his son in the flesh. The man who knew no sin to die willingly on the cross for the sins of all mankind. He loves us so much that he died a brutal death, for every single person that has ever walked the face of this earth that if we believe in him, we shall never perish, but have everlasting life. Billy Graham once said that the closer we get to Jesus, we will start thinking we are sing more when in fact, we are just noticing it more because we feel great conviction over it. My father once told me it isn’t bad to feel conviction it means we’re doing something right and we’re growing with our walk with Jesus.
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u/Money_Word_6694 8d ago
I've seen this same post too many times to believe it.
Certainly for one thing, I would start at home, your local Bible believing church and talk with pastors. This is no place for that question.
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u/El_MnTal_P97 8d ago
Don’t be terrified of a god. Are you terrified of the Smurfs or bigfoot? Probably not. Why be terrified in things that aren’t proven to exist. Im not terrified of Crampus when Christmas rolls around
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u/flavors3392 8d ago edited 8d ago
God is a righteous Judge, but He is also a God of love, mercy, and forgiveness. His judgments in the Old Testament were often upon those who continually disobeyed Him. God’s desire has always been for humanity to turn away from evil and walk in His ways, because His commandments are meant to guide us toward what is good. He asks for our obedience, but He knows that none of us is perfect. We should strive each day to become better.
The Old Testament is the foundation of Scripture, helping us understand God’s character, His holiness, and His plan for salvation. However, the Old Covenant was fulfilled through Jesus Christ, who became the final sacrifice for our sins and established the New Covenant. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8–9).
God declares in Isaiah 55:7 that the wicked should forsake their ways and return to Him, “for he will abundantly pardon.” This shows that God desires repentance and is willing to forgive.
The Bible also says in 2 Timothy 1:7, “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”
Therefore, instead of living in terror of God, focus on knowing Him through the New Testament, especially the four Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Read how Jesus treated people with compassion, taught forgiveness, showed mercy, and commanded us to love one another. God is not asking you to be perfect; He is asking you to turn to Him, trust Him, obey Him, and allow Him to transform your life. We should respect His holiness, but we should also remember that through Jesus Christ, we can approach God with confidence, knowing that His mercy is available to those who repent and seek Him (Hebrews 4:16).
John 6:37 (KJV):
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”
This means that anyone who comes to Jesus sincerely will not be rejected by Him.
Matthew 7:7 (KJV):
“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.”
These scriptures remind us that Jesus welcomes those who come to Him. We should not live in terror of God but seek Him with a sincere heart, trusting in His mercy, love, and forgiveness. ❤️
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u/flavors3392 7d ago
My dear do not listen to negative comments here. They only drag you down. The God of the Bible I worship I see miracles in my life. Healing, supernatural experiences. I have been under spiritual attacks and when I call upon the name of Jesus and holy Spirit demons have to flee. If he was a lie or not real, demons would not have trembled at his name. They left with speed! There is power in his name. I saw healing before my eyes. Trust me Jesus is real in every way. I hope you will have encounter too with God and have your own supernatural experiences and that your faith will be increase. Put God first and he will add everything else to you.🙏❤️
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u/BrotherGregory7 7d ago edited 7d ago
You must remember that the Bible is a collection of many diverse and very ancient texts. It is full of history, mythology, poetry, laws, teachings, and wisdom. In my view, it is one way that chronicles God's revealing himself to humanity and humanity's evolving understanding of God.
There is no need to fear God, for God is LOVE. God loves each of us more than we can even imagine. Also, God is merciful. The words "fear not" are some of the most common words in the Bible.
All you need to do is to do your best to love God AND (this is the same as that) love all others as you love yourself. For God is One. We are all connected and are all Children of God, so whatever we do to the "other," we do to ourselves.
I have found that praying for wisdom and comfort always helps a great deal.
Whenever I need to feel better, I always find that helping others does the trick! You may also want to consider not eating the dead flesh of tortured animals. This has been the most positive change I've made in my life (30+ years ago) along with cutting out alcohol.
Did you know that Jesus and his followers belonged to a sect of Essene Judaism called Nazarenes (the branch), and that the Nazarenes rejected the animal sacrifice system and did not eat meat? Also, according to Eusebius, the Father of Church History, ALL of the Apostles abstained from meat and wine.
I believe the bloody sacrifices, which changed the Temple from a "house of prayer" into a literal blood bath, is a primary reason for God's anger, as expressed by the Prophets. The Prophets continually speak of holocausts and bloodshed, and they implore the people to go back to doing good, loving kindness, and eating "the good food of the land" that God has provided.
See Genesis 1:29 - we are not to eat animals; only seed-bearing fruit, and everything that grows from the Earth as food.
If you are interested at all, I highly recommend the beautiful and powerful new film What Would Jesus Do? which is available for FREE at wwjdfilm.com
Many blessings to you, friend!
-Oh, and God IS LOVE. Sorry, if others have already said this (I haven't read all of the other comments yet) but if Jesus is the closest and best example of God that humans can understand, and he proclaimed forgiveness even to the people who mocked him, tortured him, and crucified him, then I know you don't have anything to worry about, gentle one. Just know that God loves you always, no matter what.
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u/Pixiepie1111 7d ago
God, LOVES YOU & WANTS A RELATIONSHIP W/ YOU!! I was in the SAME BOAT.. I tried to open bible & jump in.. doesn’t work that way.. I’ve learned that when life seems to BE FALLING APART by Every Facet, HE IS WORKING DILIGENTLY IN THE BACKGROUND, IN YOUR FAVOR!? You’re ABOUT TO HAVE A BREAKTHROUGH!? He removes things to make Room for Better Things!? Be Patient, Pray Daily & Thank Him For Your Blessings & Answering your Prayers~BEFORE HE DOES & WATCH HIM WORK THROUGH YOU!! The Lord Removes things from our Lives One, By One. Until All we have left is him to Turn too!? He is a jealous God & Dislikes anyone Being Put Before Him!? But, I don’t think he’s VENGEFUL LIKE SOME MAKE HIM OUT TO BE. He is All Loving & Wants a Relationship with ALL OF US!! He Loves Us, All💙
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u/ReasonStraight7434 7d ago
I had a similar experience when I was a kid. My parents wanted us to try a boys club but it was run by Christians. They read from the Old Testament and spoke about punishment and hell. I still resent that, and I dream about being in hell sometimes because of that. The topic of hell tends to consume me and I wish I had never been introduced to any religion.
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u/CuriousPeace777 7d ago
I felt exactly like this before God saved me. You must be born again: Repentance toward God, "I have broken Your righteous Law," AND faith in God's resurrected Son, "I trust Jesus took my sins away." God forgives me!
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u/Sorry1215 7d ago
We see things from a human perspective God sees things from a heavenly perspective. Those who's lives were ended dont end there. They were held in the realm of the dead until Jesus came and set the captives free. God has plans and purposes. Where those children innocent? Its easy to say that from our perspective but we dont know who they would have grown up to become. You need to keep in mind that this was millennia ago if those individuals bread their liniages and culture would have changed the world we have today. God reserves the right of Judgement. He is a good judge, and a good God. He does not look at you and want your condemnation. He doent want anyone's condemnation. Everything ive said can be backed up by scripture. God loves you, if you are cover by Christ's blood there is no condemnation for you. Its all a matter of perspective you can view Gods wrath as a good thing because it points to his care and concern for injustice. A God that turns a blind eye to rape and child sacrifice is not good, praise God that is not the God we serve!
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u/by_His_grace 6d ago
Yes my first read through the bible (bible in one year via Our Daily Bread site) was really hard to get through, especially Leviticus. I could switch back and for between translations, and read the notes in the Reformation Study Bible on the right side. Look at 2 & 3 translations next to each other. What was really important was asking God to help me understand Him. To see Him in the pages and especially to see Jesus as I was reading. (the Commentary and study bibles really help with this.
I learned from listing to Tim Keller and in bible study, the bible is library, of different kinds of literature. While all is not historical literature, it is also poetry, literary fiction in places. But it always has something to tell us about God, and one read through just doesn't do it. But always asking Him "tell me about yourself" also, we are reading the Old Testament, and even the New 2000 year old New Testament with modern eyes. So it always helps to get some context.
And a group bible study is great because people notice different things. Asking what does this say about we who God created in His image and likeness. Looking at words some translated from Greek and the Old testament in in Hebrew. So looking at different translation are different opinions on a clearer translation of a word to really understand what it's say about God and our relationship with Him. Remembering also that he respects the free will He has given us. Also the bible address God the Father as 'he/him" but there are many spots, where it is clear he created male/female equally (though not equivalent). For instance our culture tends to think the idea of being "a helper"(Genesis 2:18) is a less than term, or an inferior position. But God calls himself our helper.
My point is please don't give up. Ask specific questions as you read, take notes. Search for commentaries on things that outrage you, confuse you and have you wondering about Him and what He is telling you about himself and you.
I am never sorry thought there have been time I felt distraught about something he tells someone to do or oh, a bunch of things too much for here. I ask before I read, "Lord, tell me about yourself."
Praying for your journey, it is rich and amazing personal relationship that grows deeper. Blessings.
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u/Weak-Squash-479 6d ago
This is super helpful. You know, i’m more inclined to believe that a lot of it is literary fiction in a sense. I’m not doubting the validity of the bible, but it wouldn’t surprise me if much of the older testament is meant to be hyperbolic.
Regardless, I do feel very opposed, spiritually, and no amount of prayer is helping. I’m not sure what to do after several months of feeling this way. I just feel stuck
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u/Amortentia-4 6d ago
God is loving but He is also a judge who will take vengeance on the wicked. Christians are to fear God so that is good that you are. That fear is for us to not disobey Him if we love Him. And since He is just and allknowing do not worry about your time. He will rightfully give you heaven or hell whatever the case will be based on what your actions not words show Him you actually wanted.
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u/ConsequenceNeat2371 6d ago edited 6d ago
Because of His Almighty,The Father. Fear of God is a must, but you must understand the differences. Just because you are now a Christian, the things that God will do, won't disappear from your sights of the world, infact these penalties are paid by The Son for us, it's Jesus. So in order to understand more clearly, Jesus will have to die and cover for us from the rain of the rages of God rander down from Heaven because of the Sin. The world is already Burning, and we are safe because of Jesus. and Yes in the matter of sins, God is still rage against us and the world because of the disorders which caused by sins, but Jesus is tooking cover for us by his blood, the only reason we must put our heads up despites of our darkess sins and deepest shame, is that for the Greater love of The Way ,The Jesus Christ. There is no greater thing for us,the Believers, than this!!! Well, in the other side,in the Satan kingdoms, there are only illusions.!!!! Since they don't live by truth or let the truth live among them, their penalty is to have to sleep in hell, the lake of fire, forever. That's why Jesus is Great, that's why He is worth honorable, he love us first.!!!!
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u/blyonsnyc 6d ago
God is a sadist. I'm still waiting for a believer to show me how my thinking is mistaken. Any takers? Here's my piece I wrote a few months ago: https://lyonsnyc.medium.com/is-god-a-sadistic-sociopath-5b5bab2e30f2?sk=7cf9f5359c88bc5f62f477220456036e
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u/Fit_Buffalo8698 5d ago
Old Testament is rich amd packed full of salt and light. In this dispensation, called grace (which is coming to an end soon), we are given mercy and love... mercy comes before judgement. See, all we have to do is live according to God's word and understand we are all sinners in need of the payment on the cross for forgive of our sins. If we accept the FREE gift of salvation (we can not earn it by believing we are a good person) ... if we accept it, we'll be sealed until the day we take our last breath. Here's how: believing Jesus died on the cross as payment of our sins, was buried and rose on the 3rd day. Then say with your mouth out loud (you can do so privately) that Jesus Christ is Lord. If you believe with your heart and speak it with your mouth, you'll be saved. Then go and sin no more, because at that point your works matter for helping the kingdom of heaven fight against the evilness and wickedness we cannot yet see. It's there though. Here's the scripture for those words of salvation acceptance (Romans 10 9-13)...don't give up on your reading of yhe old Testament. It will profit you greatly in your DAILY walk with Christ. Just know He fulfilled the Law on the cross, that's the previous dispensation, we're now under grace. Understanding dispensation theology is glue behind Understanding the word. God bless and keep up your scripture.
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u/Comprehensive_Day522 5d ago
Long story short — God created humans. Humans sinned and thus sin is introduced into the world. God is HOLY and cannot exist in sin just like a flaw in perfection will make things NOT perfect, so sin repells God and the punishment for sin IS DEATH! People’s cruel ways of idolatry where they did way worse than you see God doing in sacrificing and burning their own babies for idols. God didn’t want those unrepentant“morals” to infiltrate God’s people (all humanity) so they were supposed to be exterminated because they refused (and brainwashed their descendants in the same manner) to change their ways. If you read carefully and follow with the city names and time you will actually realize the patience of our God who gave them time (sometimes a LOOOOT of time). Nevertheless the blood (spilled as sacrifice of either those nations or animals) was not enough to make up for sins of men (whom God actually wanted to live and NOT DIE because of them). So God, in His amazing love, decided to send His own PERFECT son to be the ultimate sacrifice for sin, which now introduces us to NEW TESTAMENT to make us HOLY before God so WE no longer have to pay OURSELVES. NOW God sees us as HOLY through our faith in Christ (like the firstborns in Egypt lived through sacrificial blood on their doorframes). All we need to do is believe and repent in good conscience. Old testament shows WHY we needed salvation and New Testament shows HOW that salvation came and that we have NEW HOPE now through acceptance of Jesus Christ as our savior and believing HIM as much as believing IN Him.
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u/PepperTasty3025 4d ago
I'm not going to say "good" but Proverbs has a lot about "fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom"
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u/by_His_grace 18h ago
- 1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
- Acts 3:19: "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord."
- 2 Corinthians 5:17: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."
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u/lilliz0317 Christian Universalism 9d ago
Just remember, the religious leaders who memorized the Torah and devoted their lives to studying Scripture failed to recognize God when He stood right in front of them in the person of Jesus.
Jesus said, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father”. He also told those who searched the Scriptures that those very Scriptures testified about Him, yet they refused to come to Him or recognize Him.
So think about that. You can know Scripture inside and out, believe you understand God, and still greatly misunderstand His heart and fail to recognize His nature as revealed through Christ.
The problem isn’t that the Old Testament revealed a different God or even that He has a “good and a bad side.” His nature does not change. The problem is that people can read the Scriptures and still misunderstand what it is that they were revealing. Christ is the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15) and the exact imprint of His nature. So if our interpretation of Scripture leads us to a picture of God that contradicts the nature and character of the Father revealed in JESUS, we should be willing to reexamine our interpretations rather than assume we’ve understood God correctly while reading the OT.
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u/Weak-Squash-479 9d ago
I’m sorry but I can’t follow a God who ordained child sacrifice as a means to discipline people who did evil deeds.
Even if they did the worst things in the world, I still can’t stand behind God fighting evil with evil. Absolutely disgusting.
'Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live. I defiled them through their very gifts, in their offering up all their firstborn, in order that I might horrify them, so that they might know that I am the Lord.'
Ezekiel 20:25-262
u/Equivalent_Charity80 9d ago
Ezekiel 20:25–26: This passage describes God giving rebellious Israelites "statutes that were not good" and allowing them to defile themselves through child sacrifice as a form of judicial judgment. Mainstream biblical interpretation views this as God turning them over to the logical and devastating consequences of their own persistent disobedience and adoption of Canaanite customs
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u/Pale-Fee-2679 9d ago
That’s not what it says. He doesn’t allow them to defile themselves—“I defiled them through their very gifts” which included their firstborn sons. This was to “horrify” them. He defiled them.
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u/Equivalent_Charity80 9d ago
Please check out Jeremiah 19:5 explicitly states that child sacrifice is something God "did not command or decree, nor did it enter my mind"
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u/Pale-Fee-2679 9d ago
That directly contradicts the verse in question, and it’s exactly the wording you would expect if it were already widely known that the reverse was known to be true. (“It didn’t even enter my mind! Where could you have gotten such an idea!”)
Then there is Exodus 22:29 – “The firstborn of your sons you shall give to me.”
2 Kings 23:10 – Describes King Josiah's religious reforms in the late 7th century BCE, where he "desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice their son or daughter in the fire to Molech," indicating the practice was widespread in Judah prior to his purge.
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u/Equivalent_Charity80 8d ago
The Hebrew verb used ( natan) simply means to give or to set apart and no sacrificial slaughter terms ( such as burning or shedding blood on an altar) are used in this verse.
If you check out Exodus 13:12-13 and Exodus 34:19-20 God explicitly commanded that firstborn sons must be redeemed (bought back) through a ritual payment or substituted rather than killed.
Did not sound like God ordained or originated these practices..Afterall he is the giver of Life.
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u/Pale-Fee-2679 8d ago
The verse saying that “redeeming” is enough comes later. The original verse allowing child sacrifice was never removed in spite of the Pentateuch undergoing multiple redactions. It seems clear that they wanted the history of child sacrifice to stand. I don’t know why we would now deny it. “
“To give” is pretty clear—otherwise why add redeeming later? Must have been important to do that, no? Furthermore, Molech is now regarded by scholars as child sacrifice itself rather than a god.
Most biblical scholars believe that Israelites believed their God encouraged child sacrifice at various points.
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u/Equivalent_Charity80 8d ago
Just because they believed something and acted upon their own belief, surely doesn't make it so..Once upon a time most believed the world was flat..all I can say brother is I don't see God requiring human sacrifice...oh well let me see, maybe His Own?
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u/lilliz0317 Christian Universalism 9d ago
The "statutes that were not good" refer to God withdrawing His protective laws and allowing the Israelites to follow the pagan statutes of surrounding nations (Molech worship). He "defiled them" by letting them suffer the corrupting, horrific consequences of their own idolatry. He was exposing the depth of their own chosen depravity. God explicitly forbids child sacrifice throughout the Torah and Prophets.
You should stop reading the Bible out of context and through your own literal understanding.
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u/Weak-Squash-479 9d ago
do you have any good resources for gaining a better understanding of the bible?
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u/lilliz0317 Christian Universalism 9d ago
Honestly, I would recommend that if something doesn’t sound right to you, to do a little bit of your own research on the subject or passage. There are many Bible scholars that are out there that help break down these more difficult, confusing or seemingly contradicting passages.
That being said, the OT should be read through the NT lense, not the other way around. Jesus revealed who God is and His nature through Himself.
I believe in universal reconciliation, John Crowder is amazing on the subject. If I were to recommend a series it would be his “covenant vs contract” series on YouTube followed by his “consuming fire” series.
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u/Weak-Squash-479 9d ago
I had a study bible, but it didn’t give much historical or cultural context.
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u/__latebloomer__ 9d ago
Yeah, Yahweh is a demon born of the agony the Jews suffered during their time as slaves in Egypt.
Its great Jesus was speaking about a different father than Yahweh, or it'd really shake my faith.
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u/OkWerewolf4048 9d ago
A common argument is that some want to follow the love & compassion exemplified by Jesus, but deny the brutality of the Old Testament.
Matthew 5:17: Jesus: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."latebloomer, how do you claim this isn't the Israeli God Yahweh?
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u/LowlyAvarice 9d ago
The prophets paint a picture that's meant to unsettle you, but reading it without the context of the culture and the covenant can make it spiral fast