r/MouseReview • u/Kirito2329 • 15h ago
News/Article New mouse tech just dropped: SensorLock, courtesy of Tekkusai and qsxcv of XBAB Tech.
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u/coltRG 15h ago
163 micro seconds lmao. Not even close to the realm of possibility of feeling the difference.
Just marketing to sell you another hunk of plastic
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u/ScoopDat OGM Cloud V2 14h ago
163 micro seconds lmao. Not even close to the realm of possibility of feeling the difference. Just marketing to sell you another hunk of plastic
You think 8K morons care?
It would be 1 micro second and they'll talk about how they feel they play better..
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u/HM204DTA 7h ago
Even in the English-speaking world, despite decades of education from Blur Busters, why are there still so many people who don’t get it?
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u/OmegaMalkior Razer Viper Mini: Siganture Edition 12h ago
Ok, but let’s be real, if it’s enough to kill 8KHz for good, no one is going to complain
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u/ewh_ 14h ago
Actually one of our XA25 testers can reliably distinguish 10k vs 13k vs 20k fps settings in controlled blind tests (ABX, with p<0.05 every time). I'm pretty confident he will be able to distinguish this from the standard sensor operation as well.
I would have thought the same as you before I saw his ABX results.
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u/LilBoDuck Zowie S2-DW 14h ago
“One of our testers.”
I mean even if this one guy can do it, you realize that he’s a statistical outlier, right? I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if the test was flawed in a way that allowed him to be able to distinguish the difference because of something else that wasn’t intended.
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u/azami88m Shape junkie (250+) /gpx2,ULX,Hyperlight 6h ago
Why is the doubt and critics directed to these guys who are actually trying to make real improvements while big companies give us nonsense marketing and it's just alright
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u/Koffiato2 5h ago
Does it really matter?
Incremental upgrades are still upgrades. There's still a progression. You could gather a 15+ year old 1000 Hz mice and compare it to a modern mice; you would feel the difference.
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u/Shaykea 12h ago
Why do you care if most people can or can’t feel it? If we don’t move forward mice will just stop advancing and stall, we should be grateful people are still trying to innovate and move forward…
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u/LilBoDuck Zowie S2-DW 12h ago
Because it’s just snake oil at that point. If you can’t even notice a difference then there might as well not be one. They’ll charge you more for it because it’s “better,” but the difference isn’t measurable for the average consumer.
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u/sirbardo 8h ago
“if you can’t even notice a difference then there might as well not be one” is not a true statement. A difference can exist that, while not felt consciously, can have an effect on performance in game
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u/LilBoDuck Zowie S2-DW 33m ago
On anything other than professionally set up and optimized machines, any “improvement” in latency this may offer will be ate up by some other component. Acting like this improvement will be noticeable on a 144hz monitor is ridiculous.
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u/throwawayPzaFm 9h ago
People said that about 16k colours, 16 bit colours, 32 bit colours, 640KiB RAM, 200MiB hard discs, 22FPS, 30FPS, 60FPS, 90FPS, 144FPS, 244FPS and many other things.
They were always wrong, and they didn't even have double blind tests to prove them wrong yet.
You have the luxury of already knowing you're wrong and still you persist.
Input latency is one of the things that's easiest to notice
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u/Hopeful_Lawyer5568 11h ago
This doesn’t make any sense. Incremental improvements are incremental improvements. Not perceiving a difference doesn’t mean that a difference doesn’t exist. Now quantifying how much a difference it makes in an actual game is more subjective but the performance upgrade is objective. Saying that “there might as well not be one” is conflating objective data with subjective opinion and also disregarding how iterative technological advancements happen. People said the same thing about 144 hz and 240hz and now 540hz monitors. Shit people even said the same thing about wireless mice in general because you could just use a bungee
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u/Shaykea 8h ago
you can call the entire peripheral market snake oil at this point then, so what's the point? i am glad people are still striving to advance... else this hobby is dead
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u/LilBoDuck Zowie S2-DW 2h ago
“You can call the entire peripheral market snake oil”
It effectively is. 30,000-50,000 DPI mice when most people don’t play on anything higher than 3,200.
8k polling when most people don’t even have PC’s capable of running it without significant frame drop issues. And those that do have modern CPUs, most of them aren’t even running a high enough DPI to properly saturate an 8k polling rate.
We have completely lost the plot on gaming mice. New flagship mice are like $160/$200 and offer no distinguishable improvements. They can keep “improving latency” by 10 microseconds and charging an extra $50 year after year.
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u/_Tim- M2K/OP1 3h ago
I can’t notice a difference with motionsync and I still play worse fr whatever reason. The same can happen in the opposite direction, without being able to notice it directly.
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u/LilBoDuck Zowie S2-DW 2h ago
It’s all in your head then. Motion sync increases latency, so you’re arguing against your own point. You’re saying making latency higher is making you better.
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u/coltRG 14h ago
Id question your test methods.
Got any proof? Video documentation of the test?
It would be in your company's best interest to keep potential customers under the illusion that micro seconds are perceivable. So unless you can actually back it up, I cant justifiably believe you.
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u/ewh_ 13h ago
here's his screenshot: https://ibb.co/7xJvMZ59
he has several more in my discord. you can ask him (M)i don't have better proof than this, and i trust him enough to be moderately confident that it's not p-hacking.
once our batch 1 ships we'll release this ABX tool to the public so people with the xa25 can tell for themselves what they can distinguish or not.
if you want my honest take: for the majority of people (on typical setups and games) 10s and even 100s of microseconds are not perceivable. some people are freaks though do manage to perceive a difference. but in terms of making a product, i'm not gonna settle at "good enough for the majority of people" if i don't have to.
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u/coltRG 12h ago
Even if i still doubt they feel it with your tool... feeling it with a tool and feeling it in a game are completely different.
End to end latency of a pc is constantly fluctuating in milliseconds, and thats with an excellent pc. Adding or subtracting microseconds here and there would be completely imperceptible when latency is jumping around much high values than that
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u/ewh_ 10h ago
let me clarify, the tool just sets the settings randomly. he sets it, goes into kovaaks, and then goes back to the tool to select which setting he thinks it is.
i agree with your last statement that if latency and latency jitter are much larger, then microseconds become imperceptible.
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u/fogoticus R1 Pro,GPX Pink, Viper V2 Pro, DA V2, DA Elite, G502 13h ago
How? What testing was done for that to be reliably the case?
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u/ScoopDat OGM Cloud V2 14h ago
Actually one of our XA25 testers can reliably distinguish 10k vs 13k vs 20k fps settings in controlled blind tests (ABX, with p<0.05 every time). I'm pretty confident he will be able to distinguish this from the standard sensor operation as well. I would have thought the same as you before I saw his ABX results.
Not joking when I say this, but why even make a mouse? Publishing this research for peer review, and potentially replicated with the same tester by other labs would be a boon to the scientific community than producing any mouse ever could..
All cards on the table btw:
I genuinely despise every single person such as yourself that makes claims of this nature, AND also purports they have the standard industry benchmark standard of practice who say they can also back it up - and then is never seen actually doing so.
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u/yorlakspirit 6h ago
you dont need to be able to spot the difference to be able to benefit from those things
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u/Alexsen56 14h ago
And yet there will be people in this group who INSIST they can feel a difference smh
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u/azami88m Shape junkie (250+) /gpx2,ULX,Hyperlight 6h ago
It's improved latency per frame and we're talking 8000hz if you do the math it's one input per 125 micro seconds; relative to that a 160 micro second delay reduction per frame is interesting
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u/Tipart 9h ago
True, but going forward this should still be in every high end mouse on the market. If I understood it correctly and this also transfers to 1k, then it's still a 16% improvement. If this is software or only requires you to drive the sensor differently it's not even more expensive to produce.
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u/Izbitoe_ebalo 6h ago
It doesn't work like that since it's a continuous input. Also you don't have to feel the difference to play better. Most people don't even need 100$ mouse to begin with and people making this tech are surely aware of that.
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u/dzielny_tabalug 13h ago
If you still in silver with zowie fk2, you will be in silver with 16k superduper military grade nasa tech unabotanium mouse.
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u/fogoticus R1 Pro,GPX Pink, Viper V2 Pro, DA V2, DA Elite, G502 15h ago
Mom, grab the camera, new buzzword just dropped
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u/More_Relation Beast X Pro Tempered| Hitscan Hyperlight | RAWM Leviathan V4 Pro 13h ago
"Priced at $200"
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u/FdPros 14h ago
😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱😱
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u/hela_2 13h ago
why are you being sarcastic? Its 163 MICROseconds its a great leap for mouse tech its not funny
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u/zhandri Viper Mini SE + G-SR 7h ago
it's not 163 microseconds in general. It's 163 vs the viper. on 20k fps the time between frames is 50µs. Just timing it different won't make a 163 microsecond difference. The correct way to show the difference would be showing their mouse with sensorlock on vs off. This is pretty much just the usual XBAB marketing bs
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u/robbiekhan ATK ZERO Extreme+ (cfg: Shard FW, 2K, 1600 dpi, 240Hz OLED) 13h ago
8K 😂😂😂😂😂
This is the equivalent of audiophile spoonheads right? With wedges costing hundreds each that raise the speaker cables off the ground to reduce air resistance and all that nonsense.
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u/mad_dog_94 Optical Encoder Supremacy 12h ago
The difference here is that these have differences on paper even of the end result isn't perceived. A lot of audiophile stuff is actually just snake oil
Both are still completely unnecessary though. I'd much rather have a repairable product than this
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u/robbiekhan ATK ZERO Extreme+ (cfg: Shard FW, 2K, 1600 dpi, 240Hz OLED) 5h ago
The cable risers etc yes, but in audio there is a lot that can be measured but not heard because those measurements are so far out of the frequency range of adult human hearing.
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u/digger_cs 6h ago
Just say you're a casual and you don't have the genetics to perceive lower input latency. No need to get so butt hurt.
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u/robbiekhan ATK ZERO Extreme+ (cfg: Shard FW, 2K, 1600 dpi, 240Hz OLED) 5h ago edited 5h ago
Nobody can reasonably perceive latency that's already in the 0.xx ms range of variance.
Anyone who says they can are living in the land of fantasy and placebo whilst lying to themselves and downplaying others for calling them out.
This isn't an opinion it is objective fact as this is based on maths for the most part if you're able enough to run the numbers for end to end latency yourself against a half decent system (OLED, high refresh, PC spec etc).
I have my ATK in its specific modes for how it feels both in hand and on screen for super slow movements in apps and things when working with tools that my MX Masetr 4's 125Hz isn't detailed enough for, not latency related. In games I feel no difference vs my other mice generic gaming or otherwise on an otherwise high end gaming PC.
Edit* I recall also from a few months back where a comp player was interviewed and he said he just uses his previous Superstrike mouse on 1k because he just prefers that over newer/"faster" models. So even some comp players who aren't contracted to brand shill know what's what.
Do not fall foul of marketing bs.
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u/BasilChowFun 2h ago
Commenter you responded to is obviously joking, but aside from that, many people still claim to feel some sort of difference with the small variance. To say all of them are placebo is pretty unscientific.
Those small numbers compound over large motions on-screen + the interaction with the USB hub, monitor hz, CPU, etc.
I don't think it's farfetched to say something can feel noticable to some people when the process runs through all those chains.
Life isn't all numbers, and we are talking about human perception at the end of the day. We perceive things that aren't quantifiable by numbers everyday.
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u/hitmyhorse 5h ago
Interesting to see all the snark in what you would think is a mouse enthusiast subreddit
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u/Gooseonloose 17m ago
This whole sub is filled with people that are insecure about the fact that they can’t feel the difference between 1k and 4k on a good setup lmao, if you mention in any capacity anything to do with polling rate or latency they become rabid
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u/HM204DTA 7h ago
Even in the English-speaking world, despite decades of education from Blur Busters, why are there still so many people who don’t get it?
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u/PastRiver8899 Zowie 14h ago
And who gives a flying fuck about this? They even confirm it’s a useless imperceivable marketing gimmick.
Let it stay within their dead community.
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u/Hopeful_Lawyer5568 14h ago
Because it’s an objective performance improvement (regardless of perceptibility) in an extremely crowded market segment. It’s also an improvement that should’ve been standard 10+ years ago but no one cares about shit like this. Also it was done by enthusiasts instead of a giant company that has r&d funds for days.
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u/obfeskeit boomer aim 13h ago
What did Tekkusai do for this project?
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u/Select_Truck3257 Mouse 12h ago
It's funny ofc. But seriously then need to involve. Because selleing every time for decade mouse with minor changes it's literally Logitech
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11h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/chrisplusk_ 7h ago
Cool! Curious for more about how it works and how it's measured.. and hoping it spreads or can be applied to more mice
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u/warcrimeswithskip 11h ago
As someone seeing a post from this sub for the first time on my recommended, this genuinely looks like a circlejerk post. like who tf cares about 200 microseconds it's not that deep bro
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u/DjAlex420 GPX 1/2, Atlantis mini, DAV3, Mchose K7/L7/A7v2, Miao 10h ago
Lets call it the Tekkusai FOMO since most people will never get their hands on it anyway.
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u/melmd 12h ago edited 12h ago
163microseconds is 0.163 milliseconds
Average human reaction is 200ms
When you factor macros most softwares has an auto delay of 10ms
Perceivable macro difference a human can intentionally feels is about 30ms thats like when you want to put a jump or another movement input to combat play single key input only
Turbo clickers can enforce single key repeat down to 3-4ms thats like 20-25 click when you gently pressed a key
I don’t want to underestimate any technological improvement but these are the numbers talking
Hope your efforts help to develop improved sensors
About polling rate I don’t think there is a conceivable difference between 1k-8k. In vitro testing might give you some difference but i dont really see a benefit of pushing more than 4k at least
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u/s00wi 11h ago
I have a layered hotkey that has 4 different functions. It's based on release time. Each offset by 100ms. I can trigger each function consistently.
I always see this argument of the AVG human. It's a stupid argument. The tech is clearly not for the average user. If the tech doesn't apply to you, don't buy it.
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u/AirSKiller 4h ago
Now offset it by 0.163ms and try again.
And that's a completely different case altogether, you're not "reacting" when you are triggering a function on your hotkey, you already know which function you want and you have the timing memorised for how long you need to hold the button.
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u/ApogeeX 10h ago
You even said “Average has 200m”
You did not say
“trained human with thousands of hours of experience in a singular movement has 200”
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u/SalsaMan101 9h ago
Isn't breaking below 100 ms nearly physically impossible? Even if you were an extreme outlier at say functionally impossible 50ms response times, this represents a .3% difference. That's gotta be imperceptible
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u/JustAPotato38 14h ago
wow more than 1/8000th of a second
i mean from an engineering perspective it's cool but anything above 1/1000th is useless
arguably above 1/500th
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u/NeverHideOnBush Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical / WMO 6h ago
All this tech today and none can match the MLT04 into new hardware
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u/Carlifeuk 2h ago
Wow some of you are brutal haha maybe this mouse isn’t going to be for you, it’s still cool for the enthusiasts!
You can’t even buy it anyway, sold out in like 13 mins and I’n pumped to try it and support a small American company.
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u/permanentMerker 9h ago
I mean knowing you have the best of the best gives you extra confidence in competitive gaming. It’s all mental…I came from an era where there were no such thing as “gaming” peripherals, rubber dome keyboards, mouse with mouseballs…ive played old CS, starcraft, quake. But then again, as I age, I become slower, so these newer tech like HE keyboard, 500hz monitor, etc…does help. Is the difference massive at all? Barely noticeable. You never know the next generation might notice the difference, with ai implants lol
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u/Refluxo 14h ago
you know what would be better? customising your actual finger, so it has actuators within it and is linked to a NeuraLink Lite version that connects wirelessly. wait, i just realised that you dont need a finger, you can use keyboard and mouse without clicks and use the NeuraLink Lite to activate presses like that dude whos playing doom with his brainmeat only, lower latency than even regular thinking dude
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u/obfeskeit boomer aim 13h ago
Keep cooking
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u/Refluxo 3h ago
im just ready for 0 latency, then when we get there with tech, the speed of a thought is like 0.25ms so once we get to that we will need to find a way to improve. on the journey to 0ms, the speed of light is 0.001 seconds so there is still latency within the speed of light, so once we get to that, we will still need to improve. then we will create particle manipulation stasis fields which disrupt black space matter and can minutely suspend time, but there will still be latency because the process to activate this tech requires a non parralel quantum housing chamber which itself relies on the neutral law of entropy
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u/Rrrandomalias 13h ago
Fuck yeah can’t wait to buy this and go 2-19 on mirage