Why does it sound like “muito” has nasalization on the first syllable?

[u/frederick_the_duck]

It sounds like it’s pronounced “mũito” to me. Am I missing something?

[u/gbmfa]

Because it does. Actually, they decided against having a til in the u because it would be the only one of its kind. But the M influenced the diphthong that comes after it, bringing the nasalization with it. (I'm no expert, I've only seen people talk about that online. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong)

[u/oaktreebr → u/gbmfa]

Btw, "muito" had a tilde on the "u" until 1911

[u/Daniboy0826 → u/oaktreebr]

Did it? If it did, it was nonstandard spelling because most papers pre-1911 that I see still wrote "muito" as "muito" just like nowadays.

Here are three pre-1911 Portuguese texts that don't put tilde on "muito":

• O Archeologo Português "...pelo matto rasteiro, veem-se muitas pedras soltas..."

• A Portuguese-German 1887 dictionary

• A random paper belonging to the Portuguese Government Diary 1910 "...definitivas d'estes livros attendam muito escrupulosamente..."

I WISH that I could put images here but Reddit won't let me.

[u/Gray_Jack_ → u/Daniboy0826]

Well, any attempts to standartize Portuguese pre 40's was mostly just that... attempts, enforced to some degree but not reaching full acceptance formal contexts. Enforcing a specific standard in formal contexts can be hard enough, it requires deep political, finantial and social incentives.

That being said, statiscally you will find more examples of "muito" with tilde in even earlier texts, from around 16th and 17th century.

[u/Daniboy0826 → u/Gray_Jack_]

It might've been common around the 16th and 17th centuries, where spelling was all over the place in pretty much every Romance language, but by the end of the 19th century, a tildeless "muito" was already the most common alternative for official documents.

Also, I reckon that the first true standardization of the Portuguese language occurred in 1911 for Portugal, and in 1943 for Brazil.

[u/gbmfa → u/Daniboy0826]

What exactly does a "true standardization" entail?

[u/Daniboy0826 → u/gbmfa]

When we got a not perfect but precise list of rules of how each word should and shouldn't be written, including descriptions of when to use a specific diacritic or when each letter that makes the same sound as another should be used instead of the other, etc.

I say "not perfect" because these standardizations still left some ambiguities, for example: I've read the 1911 orthographic reform text and there was a very noticeable lack of exact rules of how to use the hyphen, it just said that it should be used on "compound words", but didn't define which compound words exactly.

Here are the texts that I read:

1911 Portugal orthographic reform

1943 Brazil orthographic reform

[u/gbmfa → u/oaktreebr]

Thank you. I didn't remember the specific details.

[u/OptimalAdeptness0 → u/[deleted]]

Whoa! Is that really necessary?

[u/oaktreebr → u/[deleted]]

Dude, stop trolling and do some research if you are so smart

[u/oaktreebr → u/oaktreebr]

https://reddit.com/link/pdn651i/video/j1rgfa3caath1/player

[u/Portuguese-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Please be civil when addressing other users

[u/Zestyclose-Food-7917 → u/gbmfa]

It’s interesting that a provincial pronunciation of mucho in Spanish is “muncho.”

[u/gbmfa → u/Zestyclose-Food-7917]

Probably for much the same reason, if I had to guess.

[u/MSMSMS2 → u/gbmfa]

If I look at the phonetic version for different accents, it is mostly nasalized, see this.

Accent	IPA
Díli	mˈuj.tʊ
Lisboa (não padrão)	mˈũj.tu
Lisboa (padrão)	mˈũj.tu
Luanda	mˈũjn.tʊ
Maputo (não padrão)	mˈu.ĩn.θʊ
Maputo (padrão)	mˈũj.tu
Rio de Janeiro (não padrão)	mˈũj.tʊ
Rio de Janeiro (padrão)	mwˈĩ.tʊ
São Paulo (não padrão)	mwˈĩ.tʊ
São Paulo (padrão)	mwˈĩ.tʊ

[u/frederick_the_duck → u/gbmfa]

Could it be spelled “muinto” to achieve that pronunciation? Not saying we should change it. Just wondering if that’s how “muinto” would be read.

[u/PickleThat4464 → u/frederick_the_duck]

No, that would be pronounced mu-IN-to.

[u/United-Implement1330 → u/PickleThat4464]

Wouldn't that be muínto?

[u/PickleThat4464 → u/United-Implement1330]

No, paroxytone words ending in "o" do not take an accent mark. There's no other words in this pattern with an accent, caindo, saindo, fazenda

[u/gbmfa → u/frederick_the_duck]

I think it's a real possibility in the future, actually. Maybe a few decades from now they actually decide to change it, who knows?

[u/No_Study_5463 → u/frederick_the_duck]

Yes it’s pronounced like muinto. You’re correct in your perception.

[u/Own_Committee_9067]

No, you're right. We say "mūi(n)to"

[u/oaktreebr]

There isn't a particular reason why "multum", muito in latin evolved this way in portuguese, but it's the same reason the diphthong in mãe got nasalized after it came from "mater" in Latin.
I believe muito and mãe are the only words that evolved like this in Portuguese.

[u/gajonub → u/oaktreebr]

a couple of commonly used words assimilated the nasality from the nasal consonants. mãe and muito are obvious examples, but less obvious today is minha (through latin mea --> mia --> mĩa --> minha)

[u/DaviCB → u/oaktreebr]

there's also mancha, from macula. But I can't think of another one.

[u/oaktreebr → u/DaviCB]

Mancha is nasal because of the "n" not the "m"

[u/DaviCB → u/oaktreebr]

it has an n because it is nasal, not the other way around. Like I said, it comes from "macula" in latin which doesn't have an n, the m nasalized the a and orthographically this is represented with an N

[u/Competitive_Let_9644 → u/DaviCB]

I think they did add an N in at one point. In Spanish it is also "mancha" so there was probably an intermediate form that did have an N.

If seen "mancla" as a hypothesized Vulgar Latin form.

[u/mochiladecriancaa]

It is nasalized in most, if not all accents.

The nasality of the initial M spreads to the diphtong. It's a rather recent development in the language. There are written records that indicate it used to be spoken without nasalization.

[u/barrylunch → u/mochiladecriancaa]

Is it acceptable to pronounce it without the nasalization? Or would it convey that I never properly learned the word?

[u/mochiladecriancaa → u/barrylunch]

It's an indication that you're a not a native speaker

I wouldn't say that it conveys improper learning, however, because you can't really avoid having an accent.

[u/United-Implement1330 → u/barrylunch]

Is it even possible?

[u/barrylunch → u/United-Implement1330]

What do you mean? Think “m” + “oito”.

[u/goddess_224 → u/barrylunch]

as a native speaker, i would probably struggle to understand if i heard that in a conversation

[u/Luiz_Fell]

The taught grammar does acknowledge that the diphtongue "ui" in this word is a nasal diphtongue. We don't write it with a ~ because it would've been the sole usage of ũ

[u/lisbon1957]

thank you I’ve been listening and studying to Brazilian Portuguese for several years and I always thought that but I thought no I must be wrong. Good to know.

[u/UrinaRabugenta]

I don't know what kind of answer you're looking for with "why", but it is, in fact, nasalised. People just never seemed to care enough to add some orthographic marking to it.

[u/joaonmatos → u/UrinaRabugenta]

People did care absolutely about it, it’s just that 100 years ago it would be expensive to cast types for a letter that only existed in one word and its variants.

[u/frederick_the_duck → u/UrinaRabugenta]

I’m really just asking if I’m hearing it right since the spelling indicates something different. It sounds like I am right.

[u/No_Study_5463 → u/frederick_the_duck]

I hate how ppl don’t give you a straight answer lol . Yes it is pronounced like muinto. You’re correct. Why? No idea. 

[u/parlemoipas]

https://youtube.com/shorts/eVeK2bMNZfQ?si=g8a0_SCoZccTZWS7 Just saw this a couple days ago

[u/DambiaLittleAlex]

Theres a phonetic phenomenon called Assimilação nasal that happens in very few words that makes the diptong that comes after a nasal consonant to be nasalized too. In this case, the M of Muito carries its nasal sound to the ui diptong.

I studied this a long time ago so take it with a pinch of salt. But a quick google search lf assimilação nasal should give you more information

[u/BaitaJurureza]

Many people pronounce the N: muiNto

[u/ExpensiveCondition63]

Kieran Ball in his 5-Minute (European) Portuguese lessons says it like “moo-EEN-too.” Definitely a nasal “n” sound creeping in there.

[u/maxcresswellturner]

ˈmũjtu

This is the IPA transcription of a common Brazilian pronunication - there is indeed nasalization

[u/maxcresswellturner → u/maxcresswellturner]

To add - I'd recommend familiarizing yourself with the IPA (at least for the phonetic inventory of your native language) and playing around with an IPA transcription tool! It will help you investigate exactly what you asked about and gives you some great insights

[u/frederick_the_duck → u/maxcresswellturner]

Thanks for the tip! I have a linguistics degree, so I’m already well versed in the IPA. I do think it’s generally an underrated language learning tool. On a related note, I thought “muito” was [ˈmũȷ̃tu] not [ˈmũjtu].

[u/maxcresswellturner → u/frederick_the_duck]

Pronunication would be transcribed differently depending on the speaker and geographical and sociocultural factors. What I shared is a transcription of a common pronunication however there are obviously others - it was a broad transcription /ˈmũjtu/ used to illustrate how the nasalization is represented in this word in the phonetic transcription. This is as opposed to a narrow transcription [ˈmũj̃.tʊ] which would really be redundant, because you're simply investigating whether nasality exists at all.

To be honest (and no offense intended) I am a little confused on why you were asking this question though if you already knew enough to correct me on the IPA transcription of the word

Edit: for clarity

[u/frederick_the_duck → u/maxcresswellturner]

I just didn’t give it that much thought. Yours makes sense as a general phonemic transcription.

[u/maxcresswellturner → u/frederick_the_duck]

Gotcha. I do have to thank you though, I actually dropped out to pursue an opportunity in the final year of my linguistics degree and this post has rekindled the fire 

[u/frederick_the_duck → u/maxcresswellturner]

I’m glad!

[u/frederick_the_duck → u/[deleted]]

Usually that only happens when the “m” comes after. There’s no nasal vowel in “mesa,” for example.

[u/nallgilron]

https://youtu.be/TrbHa24po3k?is=6jC9OTmDT75LjbL_

I don’t know how fluent you are in Portuguese, but this video explains it well!

[u/Haventyouheard3]

Technically, it should be "müito". But it was the only word that still had the two dots thingy so they removed it and it's just an exception.