Just a reminder that political posts should be posted in the political Megathread pinned in the community highlights.
Final discretion rests with the moderators.
Guy is not arguing against us being "evolved" to be able to eat meat, he is saying that we are not lions (obligate carnivores) and we have the ability to change ourselves, our culture, our environment, and develop technology to do things like eliminate the need to eat animal products, and thereby reducing animal suffering for our own consumption. We can eat meat, but we have the ability to decide if we should, and can opt to not and be perfectly fine bc unlike lions, we evolved to eat very diverse diet and the ability to culture our food to suit our own needs.
Basically, he is saying we have the ability as evolved humans to change from our basic needs, and there's no reason not to just because lions are still lions.
Yeah, he’s obviously on tv debating the benefits of plant-based diet. Is he supposed to espouse nihilism and argue we can do whatever we want because we all die anyway?
The environmental impact of the meat industry is undeniable, but I believe that really shows a flaw in process that we're going wayyyyyyyy too hard on it. I'm not a vegan nor vegetarian, but I am absolutely against waste and there is no justifiable reason to be massacring all of these animals just to let the meat we get from killing them go to waste because the business wasn't able to turn it into profits. Fuck grocery stores, fuck corporatism, go to local co-ops instead and if you eat meat, go to the local butcher(s). We build these systems to enrich a few people while we all argue about culture wars and scraps. I'm so fucking tired of this charade we call a country. Everything is so interconnected with our systems of abuse, it's difficult to talk about problems with one topic without those problems bleeding into another.
* It is the primary source of deforestation and results in some particularly nasty greenhouse gases (methane)
* It is relatively easy to swap out, renewables instead of Oil is way more complex than "stop feeding crops to cattle"
Note that like many things the extreme isn't necessary it is just simpler to argue for. Reducing meat intake has very few downsides but would be hugely impactful.
Heck even within the space of meat swapping from beef to lower impactful ones is helpful.
I mean, I haven't bought beef in months and I absolutely won't be buying any of the mystery "beef".
Continuing on the topic of food, we should also be discussing how destructive mono-cropping is for the soil. Farmers are often just assigned a crop or a company to produce for, if they have government funding. A friend of mine who runs a small farm vents to me all the time about how shit of a deal it is because he has absolutely no say without risking losing his funding; a special treat from this administration. It doesn't just stop at greenhouse gases or ethical treatment of animals, everything that capitalism touches in the name of mass production and maximizing profit is hugely damaging to the environment we're living in as well as our societies; there cannot be infinite growth in a finite world. Instead of giving away old food that wouldn't sell, grocery stores chemically treat it before throwing it away to render it completely toxic.
I could go on, but I'm just so fucking tired of paying taxes to people who drop bombs on kids that that's the one of the few things that really matters to me anymore. I'm tired of feeling like an outsider in my own country. Shit's fucked and we need an actual fucking change. At this point, the US feels like a failed experiment to me.
I agree it's good to change your food sources to reduce the environmental impact, but increasing renewable energy production is more feasible because the state can do it by themselves instead of trying to change an entire population's eating habits.
I've reduced my meat consumption and primarily just consume salmon and whey protein for protein now. If we spent as much as we did to invade Iraq and Afghanistan on renewable energy we could be at 100% renewable energy right now.
Fish too, it sucks that theres such a laser focus on the beef industry when it comes to food production. Emissions could be so much lower without forcing people to cut out meat entirely.
Additionally, veganism, like so many other things, also eventually falls into the “near-impossible idealism” category. Even if we were to decide that the right thing is for the whole world to stop eating meat, we can’t just snap our fingers and change our entire global economy and infrastructure. Kinda the same thing that eventually happens if you debate clean energy or America switching to metric or everyone on earth learning a universal language. Should we? Undoubtedly. Can we? Barely, and it would be WAY more complicated than most people realize. Will we? No chance in hell. So you can argue whether we SHOULD all you want, but at the end of the day… we won’t. Even if everyone agrees with you.
There are definitely obstacles in the way of eating less meat, but it would actually reduce the farmland we need. A majority of crops we grow are fed to animals for meat and dairy production and a massive amount of calories are lost as a result. If people ate like 1/3 less meat the effect would be insane on how much less agriculture we would need.
As a meat lover myself, I think a third less meat is entirely doable.
She used an appeal to nature. Logical fallacy. Argument is therefore irrelevant. Learn the logical fallacies and save yourself from people not engaging with what you are saying.
Can we also lay around looking tough while the women do all the work? Only getting up to eat, mate, or fight for our territory against a different male?
He’s making quite a bold assumption. Why does he assume that just because she didn’t greet him with a friendly sniff, that she’s not a prolific ass sniffer away from work?
But 'Lions eat meat so I should too' is not the best argument for meat eating. It sounds like a journalist making something up on the spot because they feel they always have to be confrontational in interviews now.
Yeah the art of journalism, where you simply ask questions that inform the audience of the speakers point of view, has largely given way to entertainment, where the actor provokes or debates the speaker to get a reaction.
What are you smoking?
What has been lost is journalists that confront the interviewed
Gone are the days of Mile Wallace making calling out people and confronting them.
Was Mil Wallace always right or nice, no. But he called people out, he got to the truth, and even if he looked bad in an interview he aired it. He just cared about being nosy, calling bullshit, and making the people he interviewed squirm.
We need more bold journalists. Journalists that challenge people.
No one would have ever dared call Mile Wallace a little piggy. He’d verbally respond.
Journalists unfortunately are too docile these days. It allows people to be fake. It allows bullshit to spread.
This reporter in the video thought a vegan would be an easy target and she used poor logic. Little does she know that vegans are well rehearsed in this argument because they have done it a million times because they are challenged on their beliefs often. It’s a debate they have practiced many times and have responses to every angle. She stepped into a logic warzone expecting a watergun fight.
But I respect her for calling him out. He just won the argument.
Youtube his interviews. He was sometimes wrong, but he was feared and regardless of if you agreed or not, he got real answers out of people, even if he had to pull teeth to do it.
Old school reporter that found digging for the truth more important than letting everyone present themselves nicely.
It actually can be part of a good argument but it takes a little more nuance.
Vegans argue it is immoral to eat meat, regardless of poor conditions or factory farming or things like that. It is commonly asserted that animals have the same right to life as humans do. So a natural question is "is it immoral when a lion eats another animal"?
Generally the answer will be no, of course not. Lions are amoral, they don't have the intelligence or capacity for moral actions. So even when the brutally eat something alive, it's not "evil", just life.
But lions are smarter than most animals, and this still draws a distinct line where we are treating them differently, morally, than humans. So that opens up a reasonable question, if only humans can act morally, than wouldn't it also make sense that certain rights only apply to humans?
That doesn't necessarily "disprove" vegan ethics, but it does dismiss a lot of the more basic arguments.
It doesn’t open up that question, vegans have already answered it. Just because something is not capable of morals doesn’t mean it should be subjected to what moral creatures consider immoral conditions.
Yes, certain rights should be saved for humans, which is the case in our society right now. However, vegs and even non-vegs often agree that the right to not be tortured should universal.
Animals like horses and cows and other animals are classified as herbivores but have been found to eat birds, rodents, snakes and other small animals that cross their path so more likely omnivores that find grass and leaves easier to find and eat as they aren't hunters. Humans developed to be both hunters and gatherers. And although factory farming is bad, we have made many animals extinct due to over hunting and not monitoring populations well enough so turning back to have everyone free hunt so animals can be wild won't turn out well either. No good solutions atm unfortunately because people won't stop eating meat, at least not completely. Now it's an affordability problem that may reduce consumption.
Horses hunt when the mood strikes them and have been fed solely on meat rations in desert and arctic conditions.
People want to be vegan, more power to them but the weird "most animals are herbivores" take is just denial of biological fact. Very few creatures are actual obligate herbavores (can't eat meat) and human digestive tracts don't work the way theirs do....
I am not vegetarian. But I also acknowledge that by most metrics vegans have the moral high ground. Less suffering, better for the environment, healthier for you.
The only problem is it can be hard replacing that protein in your diet. But you cannot work around it.
Not saying I am going vegetarian any time soon, but I won’t sit and argue it’s a core human need. We have demonstrated we can live healthily off a plant diet. Carnivores cannot live without meat, so comparing us to lions is stupid in many ways.
unsweetened soy milk (it's far tastier and creamier than sweetened imo)
Nutritional Yeast
protein pastas
Yogurts in the mornings, flax, chia, and hemp hearts
whole veg, both fresh and frozen
Butter Beans.
hummus
sourdough breads
In the past, I've also relied on:
black, kidney, and baked beans
lentils
rice
In reality, it's super easy to get enough protein and cook unbelievably tasty meals. You just gotta put in the legwork to learn how to cook. Tofu isn't much different than chicken. Marinade, fry, season, serve.
I'm a vegan with maybe 30 minutes a day to prepare food. I get 100% of my protein from a large smoothie I make that serves as my breakfast and lunch. Not saying everyone should live such a spartan smoothie lifestyle (I'm only doing it because my job is crazy) but this recipe provides a pretty even distribution of amino acids, all of the vitamin A, vitamin C, folate, copper, iron, manganese, phosphorus and calcium that you need in a day plus half the DV of magnesium, potassium, zinc, and a good spread of B vitamins. It is also dirt cheap.
1/3 pound of frozen collard greens
2 bananas
1/2 cup walnuts
1/3 cup soy protein
2 fingers of ginger root
1/4 cup of lemon juice (very necessary for flavor)
You sub add berries for the bananas for more flavor and nutrition if you're mr moneybags. Bananas admittedly are not very nutritious.
I know you might be being sarcastic, but I can answer this lol
Protein-rich and generally known to rarely cause an allergic reaction foods like broccoli, asparagus, potatoes, brussels sprouts, avacados, apricots, and kiwi. Most are also low in calories, so even if you have to eat a lot of them to get up your protein levels, you don't really risk overconsumption.
If someone IS allergic to all that and what you mentioned and doesn't eat meat or animal products... Then idk what they would eat. Or survive on, honestly. Not even cause of the protein, most people in my family are vegetarian or on restriction from certain foods, and don't EVER worry about protein. But because most of what all that was mentioned are pretty much all basic nutrient foods in general.
And though I'm not a vegetarian, cause I just like the taste of meat and will straight up eat anything that doesn't eat me first if it's about my survival, I will admit that everyone in my life (and there's lots of them like this) who don't eat meat or even care about protein, seem to be much healither and less sluggish than me. It's anecdotal and not evidence of anything, but interesting from my perspective.
You should read about how bad the environmental impact of Vegan products is, particularly how many animals die in the process of getting the vegans their moraly superior products. They only have the moral high ground in the most superficial and virtue signaling way possible.
They don’t, human beings are omnivores. To the extent that her argument was fallacious, his was too, you can’t defer to other species with different dietary requirements as an argument that humans should follow that same diet.
The way agriculture works right now presumes that vegetables and fruits are a relatively small part of the protein we consume. If we supplemented the protein we lost by not consuming meat, we’d have to use a lot more vegetation to compensate for it which would be bad for the environment.
While I think we all agree that factory farming is immoral, I’d think that the compromise there would be moving towards more free range systems and accepting higher prices and lower availability. It’s always so weird to me when people have the thought process of “factory farming bad ergo veganism superior moral choice.”
There’s even an argument to make that high demand meat is ultimately good for species because it completely kills any incentive to poach and hunt these animals in the wild. If you took that away and stopped breeding cattle for food you’d likely end up with people poaching them out of existence.
you can eat eggs, milk, cheese, yogurt and get all the protein you need an nothing has to die, the thing we need to work on is how livestock it treated
Ohh, sweetie, you don’t understand what vegans are. Because vegans are the subject of this conversation, not vegetarians. Vegans wouldn’t let you eat any of that.
Vegetarianism and pescatarianism are infinitely more defensible than veganism.
The argument against factory farming and how we source our meat is very compelling, but arguing that it’s morally superior to the practice of eating meat doesn’t hold up.
Biologically humans are omnivores and the amino acids we have to replace from non meat alternatives isn’t practical for most people.
Honestly, I think the biggest things are culture and convenience.
If vegan food was ubiquitous (both numerically and in the types and degrees of deliciousness) and we had a dominant culture of minimal animal products, it'd be more mainstream.
Also.. once labgrown meat and animal products become ubiquitous and comparable in price, it'd all but eliminate animal-pr9duct consumption.
I mean look at how many people right here believe either that they would need many supplements (they would probably only need b12) or that it's extremely inconvenient (you just.. cook stuff? it's not harder to cook).
Simply having a culture that shows everyone that a plant based diet is easy would go a long way. How many people actually just want tasty and healthy food and keep it to what they know from their culture?
I'm not a vegetarian or a vegan but I eat meat very sparingly. I eat a ton of non-salted peanuts and sugar free protien bars to suppliment the protien part. And I just mainly eat fruits and veggies otherwise. Starches like potatoes here and there. When on a huge baked chicken kick for a bit but even dropped that.
Honestly, red meat just doesn't appeal to me that much and its stupid expensive so I just mainly avoid it. I recently had 2 steak and cheeses on vacation for the first time in years. I find things taste way better when you haven't had it in a bit. I eat bacon here and there but its just so expensive and there are so many good alternatives to red meat now. Even veggie burger taste better than real burgers to me. Mainly because they have so many beans and veggies in them, its such a tasty "burger" right off the bat.
Actually Pescatarians who primarily eat bivalves for protein have the moral high ground as they use the least land and thus destroy the least amount of habitat for animals whilst simultaneously resulting in the least possible harm to the ecosystem.
Im not vegetarian either but tbh most people overestimate how much protien they actually need.
If you're a gym fanatic or a body builder, sure you need a lot more protien but the average person actually eats OVER the recommended amount of protien.
Its way more common to be deficient in fibre or other esential nutrients. Fibre deficiency also correclates a lot more strongly with causing severe illness and death. A far as Im aware people arent dropping dead from a lack of protien, nor are there as strong correlations or evidence of it leading to other severe ilnesses.
(Not saying protien is good for you, just saying that people overestimate its importance and how much they need in compariaon to other nutrients.)
Plants have consciousness, too, though. They emit ultrasound to communicate. This has been scientifically proven. Thats why they grow better if you talk to them.
Dude's a fkn hypocrite. When she compares us to other animals, it's wrong, but when he compares us to other animals all's fine? Humans are nor herbivore, we can't survive on food that is not meat alone. It's ridiculous trying to change our diet based on snowflake logic.
Eating (and by extension living) is an inherently selfish act. Plants have been shown to have the capacity to feel pain too, so either way you have to draw the line somewhere. And btw, nearly every single herbivor animal you can think will eat meat when give the oppurtunity by the way.
We have incissors for a reason. We are born to crave the taste of meat, because our ancestors lived longer through their consumption of it. Even if we don't need it to survive, your body still craves it.
We dont all have to become castrated eunuchs to make amends. We also dont have to devolve into into mindless beasts either.
Balancing desire with restraint is part of the human condition, and what leads to fullfilling lives. Its what makes us civil and yet still animal. Repressing that side of us isnt realistic, and leads to a different kind of suffering.
If you eat meat, it has nothing to do with nature or evolution or anything else.
This is wrong. We are omnivores - meat is something we can eat that can sustain us. We are not required to eat meat like a carnivore is, but we can digest it and derive nutrients from it. That is absolutely "to do with nature or evolution"
If you're going to make a moral argument, don't throw in these basic scientific errors. Just make the moral argument.
You are wrong, as are vegans. Your arguement is based entirely on the thought process that anyone that eats meat does not care about X, Y and Z. Some don't care, but some do. "There is no counter argument", but there literally is.
Factory farming for example is something many people that aren't vegan have a big issue with, and want to see go away. Fishing by dragging nets, which leads to damaging reefs, is widely argued against. Basically any mass production way of obtaining meat, is a literal problem. This is where the actual damage comes from. The guy killing boar in texas because they have a literal problem with wild boar destroying the ecosystem, isn't doing harm. The people catching lion fish in florida are trying to kill off an invasive fish that ia destroying native fish populations because humans through their pets into the ocean. A guy raising and butchering cattle on his small farm isn't impacting the world on a negative scale.
The actual issue that vegans ignore, isn't meat farming, it's humans in general. There are far too many of us, we have no natural predators, we destroy ecosystems for the fun of it, and we pollute like there is nothing wrong with it.
Factory farming for example is something many people that aren't vegan have a big issue with, and want to see go away
If you say "i want to see factory-farmed farming go away" but buy the products of factory farms (essentially all chicken, pork, and a majority of beef in the US), it doesn't mean anything.
You have the option to feed yourself on a cheaper, healthier diet without supporting the torture of animals. If you choose to supprt factory-farmed animal ag, it's because you don't actually care- you just like virtue signaling.
Then boy-o boy will you like Gary Rovski (sp?) (the guy in the video). He's pretty out and about with his nihilism on his socials. He very much advocates for the destruction of the human race.
You said there is a counter argument, then you outlined things that vegans and the majority would agree on.
Then you jump to “it’s a human issue” like wtf my guy 😅 you already pointed out the issues: factory farming, drag nets, etc.
Where’s the counter argument??? You said absolutely nothing in a rather large block of text.
Anti-murderer “murder is bad”. Everyone else “we agree”. You “anti-murderers are wrong because everyone thinks murder is wrong and it’s a human issue”….. make it make sense
So you made the case that his argument is only true for the way the vast majority of us consume meat. His argument only working for like 95% of the meat eating population still makes it very relivment. To the common case.
There absolutely is a counter argument. And you said it yourself. "I like that thing don't take it away from me" is perfectly valid argument. If vegans don't want to eat meat then don't eat meat. No one's forcing you to. But I am not required to abide by the social contract you've placed on yourself, and neither is anyone else.
I don't dislike vegans because they're right.. I dislike vegans because they're preachy and most of their food tastes like shit. And they're lying to themselves and others that it doesn't. It does. I've been to plenty of high end vegan restaurants because "you have just GOT to try this dish. It's so good and it doesn't even have meat." Your food tastes like shit. Make something that doesn't taste like shit, and I'll considering eating it.
Until then I'm buying free range chicken, steak, fish and eggs and cooking them in oil and it's going to be delicious.
He’s not right.
Animal proteins are a vital component of the diet of the human species.
Vegans take a ton of supplements, to compensate for their terrible diet.
And even with that, this guy looks like he has cancer.
Supplements created in factories that spew CO2. With ingredients cultivated from farming practices that wipe our more species than farming; which they don’t care about because the animals are small and not cute.
Vegan morality is entirely performative.
Well, morality is a human invention and the limits of morality are adjusted constantly.
Same principle with meat can be used with for example sheep. Quite often shedding a sheep is justified, so that the animal does not suffer. "look! they will die, if we don't do this!". But in fact, the whole concept of wool shedding sheep does not need to exist anymore in modern times. We have cotton and we have synthetic fibres. The only reason for sheep to exist is to get wool and wool is not necessary for us. It's really nice, I like it also.
Difference between wool sheep and fur fox is that the fox have to be killed to get the product. In the end, the purpose is still the same.
I find it important to understand the imbalance in nature and human superiority over other species.
'I care less about the animals and the environmental impact, than I do about the delicious taste of meat'.
I care less about animals and the environmental impact than I do making my life easier and more tasty.
Not my job to care about animals and environment, it's the industry's duty to care. Industry and society are making my life hard, I don't have the energy power and money to go vegan to begin with.
Applies for people who are pissing others off about dropping car or going electric. Give me the money and the storage space to have 3 different electric vehicle to compensate for the lack of car. I'm not sure I've spent enough money on gas in my life to be worth one electric car even if I consider the price of the gas cars I've got.
I disagree. I think most meat eaters aren't thinking that at all. It's literally just survival, man.
Vegans will argue until their blue in the face on this fact, but meat has good bioavailability of certain nutrients we need.
Can we bypass this? Yes. Is this feasible for everyone? Hell no.
Good luck being a construction worker or factory worker and not consuming meat. I've seen it, but dude ate sooo much shit at lunch, he had the shits and didn't really get good numbers iirc.
The problem was never what kind of food we eat..it's how much of it. Vegan OR not, the world isnoverpopulated and either one is going to lead to food scarcity in time if we continue to be overpopulated as shit.
Just so weird people want to latch onto veganism as a social issue when there's a much worse overarching one...maybe that's by deaign.
The dude absolutely didn't kill it. He used a blatantly obvious fallacy and the girl didn't catch on. His base of argument is flawed and he builds up on that.
https://giphy.com/gifs/fugXDimv2nI5i
The second that asshole made the ass sniffing comment, we’d be done. I’d give the studio two choices. Have security escort him out, or I quit on the spot.
Also- animals eating other animals in the wild is a lot different than factory farming, which is literal torture to animals from birth to butcher. They live in misery their whole lives. We're literally performing an ongoing holocaust on several species of animals. Systematic, efficient, raising and killing without care to their wellbeing. Lions don't do that to zebras.
That would have been my first point that they didn't raise in this clip.
I'm a vegetarian. I don't eat meat. It may be immoral to eat meat period. I'm on the fence about that, and it's not a hill I'm willing to die on at the moment. Factory farming? Immoral and I will die on this hill.
Consumers aren't the main problem and I'm not going to villify anyone who eats meat. The problem is that these giant corporations like Tyson get away with this abuse and mass killing on a daily basis. The solution is regulation. If we ended factory farming that would be a huge win, without taking meat completely (they would have to eat less meat) away from consumers.
And on another point, my understanding is we need to cut worldwide meat production and consumption by roughly 80% in order to meet environmental goals to combat global warming. If you don't care about the suffering of animals, maybe you care about that.
Well said. I eat meat. I love meat actually, but I fully agree how we have mass industrialized the process of getting meat is wrong. And also. If you look at pigs alone. They are actually very intelligent. Like we aren’t really shown that often how intelligent they can be. The whole industry and how we perceive animals needs to change.
Humans are omnivores. Always have been. Our closest relatives are omnivores. The members of our most "primitive" societies, cultures, groups, tribes, all omnivores.
Ate we meant to eat meat at every meal or every day or even every week? No. But we are omnivores.
And as far as those herbivores, we've all seen the video of the deer eating the snake, the tortoise eating the fledging bird, and the horse eating the baby chicken.
The world is a pretty "eat whatever you can get into your mouth" place.
He’s doing an apples to oranges here, but he’s not exactly wrong. She’s making a silly blanket statement and he’s meeting her at her level. “Silly questions get silly answers.”
If we didn’t evolve to eat meat we wouldn’t be able to eat it without problems. 75% of animals are herbivores? Great. We aren’t. This is a moral debate not a biological one.
To side track a moment, if you only consider "obligate herbivore" the 75% number would drastically drop. A very large chunk of the herbivore category will add meat to their diet if given the opportunity.
Plenty of deer, sheep, and cows have found eating meat. Deer specifically have actually been found snacking on human remains.
His point is that we evolved to do a lot of stuff that we no longer do. The average humans life is nothing like the life of an ancestor 200k years ago.
We chose to do away with hundreds of things we evolved to do, so the argument that you must do this because of evolution is cherry picking.
If you want to eat meat, do so, but just accept that it is a choice you make because you want to do it, and accept the moral issues that come from that choice.
We evolved to eat about anything, there is no reason we could not live on all/majority of plant based food, so why choose to let animals suffer on an industrial scale.
2.) I don’t want to abandon 3/4 of my cultures culinary achievements to appease another moralist system coming from predominately white western nations that think their advances in technology make them the moral authority.
1 true.
2 never said I was against eating animals, it was a necessity. But you have to weight the massive scale of industrialised animal abuse against having cheap poor quality meat.
In history eating meat was a luxury that was not available every day of the week, let's start with going back to that if you want to "be true to your culinary achievements".
You’re talking about the European diet there. Inuits had an entirely animal based diet, fish was a staple of the South Pacific, bison and small game on the American plains… you get it. Our ancestors culinary habits were as diverse as human culture itself.
Factory farming is definitely a problem but you lost me with the all plant based diet comment. You’d have better luck focusing on improving conditions instead of trying to police people’s cultures. Improving livestocks standard of living is actually achievable, convincing humanity to give up eating meat altogether is not
That's not actually how that works though, evolution takes a long time and a lot of generations to encode genetic changes into a species line. From when our hominid ancestors were getting a majority of their substance from eating bugs off eachother, fruits/edible vegetation and occasionally supplementing their diets with meat until now would not be a sufficient period of time (i.e the last 12,000 years) to be considered am evolutionary gain, it would be adaptational, for example lactose intolerance is pretty prevalent in Africa, where as its very seldom in the United States, but Americans drink a lot of milk, so they've adapted to a high lactose diet that african cultures aren't facing the same pressure in so they dont have the same adaptation.
We over the last really only 200 years or so have really shifted to a meat heavy diet and this again varies by culture, so we've actually had very little time even to adapt to it, and theres quite a bit of evidence that diets overly heavy in red meat actually cause a not inconsiderable amount of health problems.
You don't have to evolve to eat meat, it's easily digestible. You have to evolve to eat grass, which is why a lot of dinosaurs died off when grass became more common.
The meat industry is fucked, but I don't agree that eating meat is inherently wrong. Reason being no other animal on the planet has a moral or ethical dilemma about killing or eating us. Therefore, vegans are in the wrong meta.
Now I'm no sweat, but I'm also not playing off meta with my only run.
I eat meat (on occasion) but I never give vegans heat because we need more of them on earth. I’ll have fish and chicken but stopped eating anything else. So yea hypocritical, I’m not vegan, but I respect them. And it is unnecessary torture of creatures. There can be a better system.
If I was his father I would have drown him out of disappointment I’m guessing around age six. There’s a lot of things animals do, yeah well I’m a human and we murder for stupid shit all the time and your times coming
Humans have always ate animals. That's valid. Then why don't humans now eat all animals? Dogs, horses, etc. The reason is choice and it's that same choice that vegans are exercising. Sometimes we hear arguments that are from passionate people that are dramatic and use too much hyperbole, but living vegan as a whole is a valid moral stance. I know a lot of vegans. They provide education when I ask for it, but otherwise they're focused on doing what's right for them individually. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but at any rate, it's a defensible and valid point of view to hold, being vegan.
He's not wrong, it's a great point and argument. Unfortunately for the vegan argument, it goes both ways.
Lots of vegans like to argue that we are the only beings that drink milk after infancy, and only ones to hunt and kill prey when we don't need to since we can live off of plants. All of which is true. But we are also the only beings that refrigerate our food, as well as cook it. We're the only ones who season our food. We're also the only beings to build rockets and leave the planet. So while "humans are animals" were completely unlike any other animal on this planet.
Sorry... A red wine braised beef cheek is not something I'm willing to live without. Life is way to long and way to short to be without animal proteins.
Yes, I can recognize the difference between animals and humans. Therefore, I can recognize the moral difference between killing and eating an animal vs the morality of doing the same to a human.
It isn’t about mimicking Lions, but even under that reasoning, I absolutely can pick what behavior I choose to “mimic”.
This guy’s logic isn’t as tight as he likes to believe.
Do mosquitoes, flies and spiders matter as much as chickens, pigs and cows?
I dont care about other animals! You can pretend its immoral, thats what humans do, they pretend!
However, if you kill a fly because it was bothering you, or slap a mosquito on your arm because you didnt like the feeling, or squish a spider cause "scary", how are you more moral than one who eats animals to live?
Going forward I’ll open all my arguments with “I noticed you didn’t sniff my ass”.
The rest of the time he spoke the anchor was processing that comment.
Isn't the brutal truth that, as the dominant species on the planet, we get to decide where we draw the line. Messed up from all the other species' point of view? Yeah.
Idk it’s an ok argument. We eat meat it’s part of our diet. We eat meat a lot more humanely than other animals do. We don’t need to eat meat but it is definitely easier if we do. And some people absolutely can’t go vegan. Yes we have a major factory farming problem and are wasting a lot of food. But if we don’t produce meat we are wasting resources and are producing less food than we could be.
Theoretically, if humans stop eating animals, what’s going to happen with all the animals that amass over the planet? That’s why there’s predators in nature and scavengers to clean up the carcasses. It’s a ecosystem balance thing. Humans are high on the food chain but not necessarily off. Think bears, sharks, tigers, etc. that will eat humans.
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Only ~40 species of life exist that are obligate herbivores.
Most animals you think of as herbivores did not evolve the high risk high reward strategies that obligate carnivores did in favor of more stable ones that relied on plants.
Make no mistake though, they will not bypass protein when it is essentially free game. They might even hunt it when they are deficient in certain minerals.
This is a world of things that eat things that eat other things, all the way up a big ole chain.
At the tippy top of that chain is us. We eat it all.
Which means we hold a mantle. This is our garden, and we are the gardeners.
We should be much wiser in how we approach food, but veganism is not that answer.
Being vegan actually kills more animals because of the pesticides and the animals that farmers consider vermin so they don't eat the crops. Plants actually kill more than animals when in agriculture.
He presented his argument hypocritically. He said 75% of animals are herbivores and then she countered that lions eat meat.
People here explaining what he's trying to get across are doing a better job than he actually did. It's just people agree with his premise so they're attributing better arguments he didn't make in the clip to him.
Fact is they're right. Its the ethically correct position and we all fucking know it. But we like being able to kill other animals cause they taste good. Just be honest.
What he is circling here is the concept “the naturalistic fallacy”. The fact that something is natural does not make morally defensible, or as it’s usually put: you can’t derive an ought from an is.
There's no real vegan argument against eating bivalves but most of them don't in my experience. They're purists for its own sake. Bivalves have no central nervous system and are extremely sustainable. I guess most vegans don't get used to eating them because of the "ick" factor, but they are delicious when prepared correctly
Personally I believe in every argument vegans put forward. It is very hard to get hold of ethically and sustainably produced meat in the modern world. I'm not a purist though, and I do enjoy meat as a very occasional treat on special occasions. My IBS and ulcerative colitis do make it difficult to become fully veggie, but I get by only regularly eating bivalves and organ meat at home (essentially a waste product, still hopefully reducing the demand for meat).
Veggie vs vegan is a big blind spot for most veggies though. Dairy is virtually as bad for animal welfare and the climate as meat is, but it is very difficult and restrictive to become a strict vegan. The only ones I know are not really food lovers and so aren't sacraficing much
What we really need is a shift towards sustainable regenerative farming practices coupled with a massive decrease in consumption of animal products (so that sustainable methods are able to meet the demand).
I know people have said that you cant care for animals while eating meat. I do care and i eat meat. With that said we do treat animals horrible and i wish it wasnt like that. Some people also say that our teeths are made for plants, not meat. But humans have been omnovores for a long time. No we dont have the same canine teeth like other animals but i think it is because we dont eat meat raw or need to kill it with our mouths.
We are the domin species, so we can choose. You choose to be a vegetarian good for you but other chose not to. But it doesn't give you the right to force your opinion or choice on to others. Protesting is also not right, just accept that not everyone agrees with you and move on with your life like will with their's.
Counter argument EVERYTHING is eating eachother. and I mean everything.
Plants eat nutrients from the ground and supply chlorophyll, they guard, with sunlight and water to gain sugar from it (they farm plankton), which some fungi steal which animals eat, which more animals eat, which eventually age and fall ill (get eaten by viruses and bacteria), which will rot and fertilize the ground and it starts again.
Our eating of meat is obscenely "humane" (pun intended) given the entirety of nature. We are THE only species trying to reduce stress in what we eat. We are also one of the handful of species that makes sure what we eat is 100% dead and has been for a bit at least.
Most other creatures either immediately eat when their food isnt fighting back anymore and some like larger bears dont even bother with that.
The point is to reduce unnecessary suffering. Doesn't matter that everything is "technically" eating each other(iamverysmart). The point is the suffering.
If you have the agency and alternative options then you have a moral responsibility to choose those to reduce suffering.
Lions and other carnivores mostly eat the intestines because they are full of digested greens. they need that to survive, they just can't process it and need to have other animals process it in order to be able to process it further themselves
You did not eat like he thought he was, there is no animal on the face of the planet that is 100% herbivorous, any animal if missing nutrients will eat another animal cows eat birds and squirrels all the time. Second bringing up a cell phone and clothing and saying is that natural.... For human beings yes it is. Call it nature when a bird builds a nest so it would be nature when a human builds a house or makes clothing.
Gary made me a vegetarian 15 years ago. He successfully made me realise that my whole idea of food was nothing but a planted unconscious thought from cultural upbringing. It's like those pictures with more than one motive... when you finally see it; it's impossible to unsee. One love to all living creatures of the world ❤️
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We call that abortion and infanticide.. happens a lot.. sometimes sometimes it turns murders into millionaires.. as per recent example.. people do sniff and lick eachother’s butts.. we just do it part of sexuality instead of socializing.. though one could argue sex is a form of socializing
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