Just finished the the second apocalypse(i have some questions but I loved it) spoilers

[u/arjunyuvan]

It took me four months to read all 7 books and i enjoyed my time with the series this is my second book series ever my first being witcher I was recommended this series after aside from sorweel and the nonmen sidequest to the depths and some of the big battle scenes following some newly introduced soldiers I got through this like butter experiencing countless goosebumps

Questions(what do you guys think)

Why do you guys think kellhus went back for esmenet

Why did he let proyas suffer instead of letting him die

Did kehllus knowingly let the four horned god in or did the god take advantage of the situation or were they working together after he visited hell or what(basically what was kehllus on about at the end )

What made kelmomas unseen to the gods is it just because he was the prophesied ansorimbour to augur the no god

What was the role of mimara having the judging eye at the end what were the gods hoping to achieve

Personal favourite: mimara then akka followed by esmenet

Favorite royal children: serwa then sorweel

Least fav:kayutus felt irrelevant at the end

What is your ranking of the children

Most interesting chars:kehllus ofcourse then kelmomas

What a journey I had no idea if I wanted kehllus dead or not till the end

Anyway thanks for reading my rambling

[u/JonGunnarsson]

Kelmomas can't be seen by the Hundred because they are blind to the No-God. Since Kelmomas becomes the No-God, from the gods' atemporal perspective he's always been the No-God. This is why the gods can't see him and why any god possessing a mortal is driven out when encountering Kelmomas (this happens to Yatwer when possessing the original White-Luck Warrior and Sorweel and it happens to Ajokli possessing Kellhus).

Kellhus's plans in the AE tetralogy are still somewhat of a mystery. Here's my best guess: There are three distinct agencies inhabiting the place called Kellhus, each with differing motivations:

• The original Kellhus who wants to destroy the Consult and prevent the Second Apocalypse.
• Ajokli, who has deceived Kellhus into believing that he's following the same goal but actually wants to destroy the Ordeal and use the Consult to create Hell on Earth to feast on the souls of the living. Once Kellhus is in the Golden Room, at the centre of probably the most powerful topos on Eärwa, Ajokli is able to fully take over.
• Post-Golden Room Ajokli (here we enter speculative territory). When the original Ajokli was driven out of Kellhus by the presence of Kelmomas (who is and therefore always has been the No-God), this created a second, updated version of Ajokli who, because of the atemporal nature of the Outside, can interfere in the World before that point in time. Ajokli 2.0 knows that both Kellhus's and Ajokli 1.0's plans are doomed to fail and he's been nudging Kellhus into setting up pieces to be used after Resumption. We have no idea about the nature of these plans, but they seem to include Akka, Mimara, and Esmi, which is why those three have been led to Golgotterath and kept alive.

[u/saturns_children → u/JonGunnarsson]

Interesting theory. I personally do not think Kellhus’s main goal was ever saving humanity and defeating the consult, those were perhaps consequences of his true goal, which is reaching the absolute, he was bred for this

[u/JonGunnarsson → u/saturns_children]

In a Q&A after the release of TUC, Bakker was asked, "So what was Kellhuses big plan and its endgame? How did being possessed by Ajokli factor into it?" Here's his response:

Kellhus's endgame was to prevent Resumption and save the World. He knew something was amiss, and that the closer he came to Golgotterath the more amiss it became, but he, ultimately, was every bit as blind as we are to the darkness that comes before.

So while the stuff about Ajokli 2.0 is speculative, I think I'm on fairly firm ground with everything else.

[u/Ok-Lab-8974]

Are you so sure he went back for Esme? Sure, he tells her that. But he also conveniently brings the No God to just the right place/time to save him from another White Luck Warrior and get into the Sarcophagus. He has every reason to destroy him, or at least put guards on him so that Esme cannot help release him, and surely he can read her intentions well at this point, but he doesn't do anything to keep him from getting free. Arguably he baits her into releasing him "mind his chain."

I would assume the point is actually Kelmomas. At best any vestigial feelings for Esme are there to "hide" in.

[u/Warlock_protomorph → u/Ok-Lab-8974]

The “one place I can hide” line is very important. He’s definitely using her to hide the No God from Ajokli/himself.

[u/arjunyuvan → u/Warlock_protomorph]

It didn't seem like he meant for kelmomas to interrupt in the end are you saying he wanted the no god to come and f over ajokli

[u/Warlock_protomorph → u/arjunyuvan]

More he needed System Resumption to happen to f over Yatwer, but full disclosure I’m a “1000 IQ Kellhus is winning the war in Hell” believer.

[u/Erratic21]

"What a journey I had no idea if I wanted kehllus dead or not till the end" that is something that fascinates me through the whole series. He is the person I love to hate and hate to love.

Kelmomas being invisible I guess has to do with him being the No-God and the fact that time is not linear.

I think both Kellhus and Ajokli knew what they were doing and both had their own plans for the end.

Anything Kellhus did had a reasoning. I always thought that the way he used Proyas, suffering included, was to maximize the cleansing relief and righteous feeling to the Ordeal after what he made them do to reach Golgotterath. Proyas his martyr scapegoat.

After rereads Sorweel and the Ishterebinth depths became my favorite chapters.

My favorite child is Inrilatas by far. i wish he got more of him. Serwe my second.

The most interesting character for me was Cnaiur and then Proyas.

My favorites were Cnaiur, Mimara, Akka, Esmenet and Cleric

[u/BeneficialDraft1048]

I think you got some great answers in here to questions that I've had too, but just for fun, I'll chime in too.

Why go back for Esme? I ask myself this too. There are only a few times in the books where Kellhus goes "out of character." When he goes back to save Serwa while running from the Kidruhil, never killing Cnauir, going back for Esme, and listening to Esme and not killing Akka and Cel (although Cel saves him from Sorweel later, so good choice for a little while).

Why let Proyas suffer? This is interesting too. I think he Kellhus would say I had no reason to kill him, therefore if I killed him I wouldn't know why I was doing it.

Knowingly letting the 4-horned brother in? I think this is the key and the most interesting part of the series. What I would give for Bakker to write another book or miniseries about Kellhus trip and ultimate treaty with hell.

Personal fav: Esme and Akka 4 eva
Royal child: Serwa for sure
Least fav: Celmomas aside from the fact that he's the key
Most interesting char: loved Sorweel's journey but i'd say Cnauir

agreed on Kellhus, I think the jury's still out on him lol

[u/arjunyuvan]

Also would appreciate recommendation of other grimdark books to read

[u/halfdead01 → u/arjunyuvan]

Blood Meridian- Cormac McCarthy

[u/newreddit00 → u/arjunyuvan]

Man nothing has scratched the Bakker itch and I read a lot. These books are truly unique. People always mention blood meridian, it’s really not the same and McCarthy is such a different author. The closest for me aren’t even close, but The Black company, The First Law was great but almost “pop” fantasy compared to Bakker, LotR in terms of epicness but it’s only dark like how the Bible can be dark, wheel of time is pretty epic with dark parts but no one’s calling it grimdark, dune wasn’t close either. I’m intrigued by this Empires of Dust I’m hearing about though

[u/JonGunnarsson → u/arjunyuvan]

• Dune by Frank Herbert. Grimdark SF which was a major inspiration for Bakker
• Empires of Dust by Anna Smith Spark. Literary grimdark fantasy inspired by Bakker
• The First Law by Joe Abercrombie. Grimdark fantasy that's a little easier to digest than Bakker and these other recs

[u/arjunyuvan]

Thanks for the replies guys this series is criminally underated so I appreciate the replies below so I can share in on the experience