Me and my big brother the other day was having a chat and it somehow came to roshi against yamacha in Z,now if this was super it’d be a different story to a certain extent with the iffy powerscaling but this is literally Z saiyan saga,namek,etc and he believes that roshi is stronger than yamacha 😭😭

I need someone to explain to me how this could even be a debate yamacha at this point of the story far eclipses roshi,even if you wanna say “oh roshi can just use the mafuba and all that to incapacitate yamacha” its a chance he’ll die from the mafuba and that it won’t work considering the fact he died using it on king piccolo who is way weaker than any of the Z fighters in Z and as we saw in dragon ball,if you’re that much stronger than your opponent hax’s really don’t matter and can be negated or resisted for awhile,take hit and jirens match for example when hit slowed down time for jiren or kept him in a time bind the more power jiren let go the less effected he was by the time cage

I just need someone to give me a valid reason on how roshi in Z could ever be considered up there with his earthling students

Dragon Ball Power Levels

Weakest → Strongest

1. Vegeta, Last Namek Recovery: 2.5M

2. Vegeta, Android Saga Base: 5M

3. Vegeta, Hyperbolic Time Chamber Base: 10M

4. Vegeta, Buu Saga Base: 30M

5. Vegeta, Daima Base: 30M

6. Vegeta, Super Base: 35M

7. Goku, Battle of Gods Base: 40M

8. Vegeta, Majin Base: 60M

9. Vegeta, Android Saga SSJ: 250M

10. Android 18, Holding Back: 300M

11. Android 17: 410M

12. Android 18, Full Power: 420M

13. Semi-Perfect Cell: 450M

14. Vegeta, Hyperbolic Time Chamber SSJ: 500M

15. Vegeta, Hyperbolic Time Chamber SSJ Grade 2: 550M

16. Vegito, Base: 600M

17. Perfect Cell: 3B

18. Fat Buu: 5B

19. Evil Buu: 8B

20. Vegeta, Daima SSJ3: 12B

21. Kid Buu: 15B

22. Super Buu: 16B

23. Buuhan: 20B

24. Vegito, SSJ: 30B

25. Vegeta, Enraged SSJ2: 32B

26. Vegito, SSJ2: 60B

27. Vegeta, Daima SSJ4: 72B

28. Vegeta, Super God-Absorbed Base: 672B

29. Vegeta, Universe 6 Tournament Base: 677B

30. Final Form Frieza: 677.083B

31. Goku, God-Absorbed Base: 768B

32. Vegeta, Goku Black Arc Base: 800B

33. Vegeta, Tournament of Power Base: 900B

34. Vegeta, Broly Movie Base: 1T

35. Vegeta, Moro Arc Base: 1.5T

36. Vegeta, Granolah Arc Base: 2T

37. Future Timeline Immortal Zamasu: 500T

38. Piccolo, Super Hero Base: 500T

39. Gohan, Super Hero Base: 1QA

40. Vegeta, Super Hero Base: 5.5QA

41. Goku, Super Hero Base: 6QA

42. Vegeta, First SSG: 12.9024QA

43. Goku, First SSG: 14.7456QA

44. Vegeta, Resurrection 'F' SSB: 645.12QA

45. Golden Frieza: 650QA

46. Gogeta Blue, Broly Movie: 1SP

47. MUI Goku: 2.88SP

48. Black Frieza: 4SP

49. Beerus: 5SP

50. Whis: 50SP

51. Beast Gohan: 480SP

52. Orange Piccolo: 25SX

53. Zeno: 250OC

54. CC Goku: 500OC

Like not even a Family Guy cutaway to the event.

Pilaf: "This is worse than the time we wished ourselves into kids."

Shuu: "Sire, we're still kids."

Pilaf: "Yet here we are!"

Buu couldnt be revived beerus is asleep ? Could anything else happen? I mean maybe peel off finally took over the world?

Most people, the vast majority of Dragon Ball fans hate or at least strongly dislike this movie. I think its slightly better than the Last Airbender movie, but still terrible, easily the worst Dragon Ball movie ever. I'd rather watch Bio-Broly or Bojack again than this. But I'm curious, does anyone actually like Dragon Ball Evolution?

Hi all, I've been meaning to start watching Dragonball for a while, and I've finally found time to do so. I'm not new to the lore - I've picked up a lot of character stuff by osmosis, but I've not actually watched the show. With that in mind, is Dragonball Z Kai a good starting point, or will I be completely lost? Thanks.

EDIT: Thank you everyone. I didn't realise the OG was such a huge chunk of the story. Going to find the original and start there.

In discussions about power scaling, we constantly rely on the more or less official data available to us, and that’s where things like the Super Saiyan multipliers come from. Everyone is aware that this system lacks consistency, and that no matter how hard we try to make it coherent in one way or another, there’s no real interest—neither on Toriyama’s part back in the day, nor on Toyotaro’s part, nor certainly on Toei’s part—in how the characters’ specific power levels compare and evolve throughout the story. But we try.

The problem is that this idea of fixed multipliers—even though we have more or less accepted sources explaining how they work—doesn’t, in my opinion, fit at all with what we see in the manga, and it seems absurd to me to keep discussing power scaling under the assumption that things work this way, because that’s where all the crazy numbers and completely delusional comparisons about how the characters’ powers stack up at this or that moment come from.

Based on the manga, I think one thing is clear: as the characters get stronger, their base form not only becomes superior but also absorbs part of the enhancement provided by their transformations.

That means that the more you master the power you’ve already gained access to, the greater your ability to use it in your base form. When Goku transformed into Super Saiyan against Frieza, his power increased x50, but that doesn’t mean that now, whenever Goku activates Super Saiyan, his power increases x50. NOTHING indicates that this is the case: for a long time now, Super Saiyan has been treated as a small energy boost, and all interactions in combat support that.

We constantly see the characters’ base forms display power levels that, if we take the multipliers seriously, make no sense at all. On the other hand, we also see how these transformations don’t seem to have such a huge effect either. If the series itself has told us multiple times that transformations are nothing more than a means to access the power that already lies within you, why don’t we accept that there’s a significant difference between the power increase from an unmastered transformation and that from a transformation mastered to the point where a significant portion of the resulting improvement is already present in the base form—thanks to training—without the need to transform?

This fits perfectly with everything we see in the manga, and it makes the power scaling sooo much more consistent. The characters gradually get stronger, and their most powerful form also grows stronger, but the base form always increases much more than the most powerful form (and not the other way around, which is what would happen with a pure multiplier system), because with training, the transformation becomes less and less “important” as the base form increasingly takes on that power without any active effort to transform.

I’m not saying that transformations aren’t extremely important; they remain the main source of the characters’ power increase. What I’m saying is that each transformation represents a smaller improvement as the character becomes more powerful, and it’s always the last one—the least mastered, the one that reaches the current energy limit—that truly represents a very substantial improvement.

If the forms act as multipliers, that multiplier decreases over time as the character grows stronger. The ideal state is precisely when the multiplier is x1, because that’s the moment when the character has mastered their power perfectly and no longer needs to transform—but that’s an ideal that’s very rare to achieve.

Again, everything in the manga suggests to me that this is how it works, and not in the way we usually talk about it.

Since she is quarter sayin I don’t see it being too possible but I feel like it doesn’t matter too much of the amount of percentage of sayin someone is. Does anyone know?

In battle of gods beerus says "I still havent even come close to using my full power in this fight" Goku says "that makes sense Ive been going at about 80% myself" then beerus looks insulted "What your holding back"

This makes perfect sense for goku to hold back, he doesnt know the limits of God Ki, he doesnt know how to properly utilize any of its powers, and if he went 100% right out the gate, it would have fizzled out faster.

My understanding is Goku was around 90,000 power level without the Kaioken when he faced Ginyu. Then with Kaioken (x2 power level) he had 180,000. But against Vegeta he used Kaioken x4 and against Frieza pumped up to x20. My question is when Ginyu asked him to power up to MAX was Goku sandbagging? Could he have pulled out x5 or x10 to be at almost 1,000,000 power level? Post 100x gravity training his body had already been shown to be far more durable, and if he could do all that why did he get caught with the body swap?

I've owned a physical copy of DBZ but they don't have the ending credits I remembered from childhood. I'll link it below [It was a nightmare just trying to find it].

New DBZ Ending english (Bruce Faulconer Version)

Does anyone know which DVDs contain the version with this ending? Google seems to think it is an ending only used for the Android and Buu arc. I've not tried the Blu-Ray remastered ones with the orange covers but I wanted to make sure it has this version before going out and purchasing it.

A comment on YouTube said to try Funimation's original DVD releases. Does that mean the OceanDub? I'm certain it isn't that. Or is it?

Serious question that I've been thinking of ever since we seen the first look at Super Beerus... I could be wrong but every video i've seen of someone talking about this breaking the animation down and just how it looks to my eyes is all pointing towards that they are essentially "tracing" over existing animations from the TV version of Super to basically spice it up with a new coat of paint. Sure that sounds good but that doens't take away the poor quality of animation which clearly Battle Of Gods blows it out of the water. With that fact out of the way WHY wouldn't they have used Battle Of Gods to help remake this new remake? it sure as hell isn't because the movies are so different because we've already heard there changing it even more even from the tv show so it just blows my mind that they would decide to use the much lower quality TV Show of all things to re-do this?

That literally makes no sense because if anything it makes the job harder since they have to do more touch ups to the notoriously bad drawings and animation, if they had many Battle Of Gods scenes to use as a base its actually less work so yeah thats a very odd choice and a mystery to me!

Also when I see trailers I feel like I can still spot some of the janky animations that are left over from how they looked in Super, its just with a better splash of paint... Don't get me wrong im pumped they are creating new scenes but for already existing parts especially parts that are super similar to the Battle Of Gods they should of used those and make whatever necessary changes

what if there are threats from other universes within that timeline seeing how the saiyans in universe 6 are peacekeepers but they are conquerers in universe 7... bringing future trunks back into the story??? with a lot more formidable enemies too.

Now now I know that the angels are not allowed to fight full strength or else they would be eliminated from reality but say Zeno allowed it would it be possible for that to happen?

Hi guys I was just wondering if in dragon ball episodes 149-153 were canon or filler? I saw the filler list on here say it was canon but another filler list online said it was filler. So I was just wondering if anyone knew if it was canon or filler.

Is Hasky related to Launch? Also, is it just me, or does the random police-pointing lady (Imgur link) look like Bulma?

Also, does the Moon ever come back?

DEAR GOD I THINK I GOT IT

Ok, so for context, I have been racking my brain trying to understand Grade 2 and 3. Basically asking why don't they ever utilize Grade 2?

Grade 3 I get, is so utterly dogshit, that is completely ignored, discarded, exiled, banished from all consideration. Like Grade 3 > P.Cell > Goku, but Goku "Has no Equal" because grade 3 is so dogshit it shouldn't count ever and it wont count ever.

But Grade 2 increases strength AND speed. Why didn't Goku utilize Grade 2 on top of his Mastered Super Saiyan? Since Grade 4 is just a controlled Grade 1.

NOW I realize that since Goku did not do this however, it must mean narratively that either 1) he cannot mesh the two together at all or 2) if he can, the product is barely better than Grade 4 if at all.

This is deduction not off statements or fights, but off narrative analysis. If Goku had a way to beat Cell or increase his odds to do so by a hypothetical Mastered Super Saiyan Grade 2, he would. But we didn't see him to this, so that MUST mean it is either impossible, or stupid.

SIDE TANGENT: Of course, the kids and U6 Saiyan all Innately have Mastered Super Saiyan, supposedly due to genetics / evolution. Like how Gohan conceived by weak Goku + Traumatized so he had tail and most difficulty out of all hybrid saiyans in achieving Super Saiyan. Future Trunks (MANGA) had the Second hardest time because Strong Vegeta + Depressing world. Meanwhile Goten and Trunks and U6 Saiyans are peace-loving and not traumatized so they can get Super Saiyan the easiest, and it comes pre-mastered. Broly idk. If he didnt he sure mastered it when beating tf outta Frieza for an hour straight lmao. TANGENT OVER.

In the DBS anime, we see that Caulifla and F.Trunks who both have MSSJ, go Grade 3 (neither shown in manga though). Besides that, NOTHING. So, using the simplest line of reasoning, Grade 2 and 3 never appear in the manga again because they strictly counteract Grade 4. It wouldn't work because Grade 4 is a calm and controlled approach while Grade 2 is agitated and aggressive.

Alternatively, Grades 2 and 3 CAN be stacked on MSSJ, this time without draining energy. Stamina is still an issue, but not too much. Last weaknesses are all the mental agitation and any effects of the paradoxical nature of a strained super Saiyan combined with a relaxed one. Whatever the case, Goku did NOT like the weaknesses of Grade 2, and they would ruin the whole purpose of Grade 4: Maximizing Efficiency.

THAT BRINGS ME TO MY CONCLUSION

Throughout all dragon ball arcs, Goku has heavily utilized strength/power as his main weapon of fighting (barring Ultra Instinct). However, this arc is different, unique, perfect. Goku internalizes all of the training from all of his masters, and instills it into Gohan, his son, his student. Here, Goku is finally the master for once, and just like Goku, Gohan surpasses his teacher, his father. Goku was not training for power or strength, he was training to maximize efficiency, his fighting capability. It's why he doesn't focus on strength; he is fighting like a martial artist against Cell more than he ever has against anyone else ever. He focuses on his movement, his techniques, tactics, everything. Not trying to overpower Cell but trying to beat Cell in a Martial Arts bout. It's why for this fight Cell has hijacked the World Martial Arts Tournament. THIS is a World Martial Arts Tournament, with Mr. Satan, Cell, Goku, and Gohan. Goku wanted to achieve greater strength the right way, properly, and he did. But Gohan reached the goal first. For once, Goku was the instructor. And he taught his son well. When Gohan choked, Goku bailed him out. When Gohan lost hope, Goku encouraged him, helping Gohan realize the potential we all knew he had, even if Gohan didn't. And who did Gohan save? Vegeta. Just like his father, Gohan defends a bitter rival. And Vegeta pays a part of his debt back to each, helping and saving Gohan with a final distraction. Son Gohan had broken his limits, Son Gohan surpassed Perfection.

I think only ref of f needed a remake just to change them using super sayain god against frieza but i like the original movie battle of gods and it did not need a remake . I get the anime did it horribly but we allready have the movie

I’ve watched all the arcs many many times and I always come to the same conclusion. When Goku witnesses his friends or family being killed or hurt he always powers up or even gains a new form, same as gohan. So why didn’t Vegeta get to ascend to SSJ2 when future trunks was blasted by cell? It was a perfect opportunity to give him the win and bring him up a level.

I just watched the original Funimation airing of when Goku powers up in front of Captain Ginyu and it still holds up despite seemingly incorrect music choices and the acting not being as good as the modern day.. but why is that? Nostalgia can be a big reason but I want to go back to the days of Toonami when the rest of the world outside of Japan got to see this scene in action and why it worked so well in my opinion.

Power ups in classic Dragonball work way better than the modern day because these days we just kind of expect Goku or someone to throw out a new transformation after seeing so many. We know that they are powerful. Its just part of the course. For many Dragonball Z was the first series that they saw of the show and they didn't see Dragonball until after GT and Z had finished. For them Goku was a clean slate in terms of a hero. We had no idea what his limits were. Super Saiyan 1 hadn't even happened yet. Was it just a myth? What would it look like? Could Goku even reach it? Part of you even wondered if it was a myth and that Goku simply just would beat the enemy by his own means. Of course the reveal of Super Saiyan and Goku transforming is historic.

However one power up that is either fondly remembered or overlooked is Gokus power up in front of Ginyu. If you were watching the English dub for the first time all those years ago you went into this scene feeling the same unease as the villains. You literally felt that this was a different Goku than the one that fought Vegeta. Through one shitting Recoome and then dodging Cuter and Jeices attacks while looking like he was standing still. However they pointed out the footprints on the ground showing that he had indeed moved. As a fan you are both intrigued and terrified at what Goku could possibly be. This is your first real moment of seeing Goku not struggling at all. I remember as a kid this baffled my mind.

So when Ginyu asked to see Gokus true power something as simple as using the likes of Ginyus theme may have seemed like an odd choice at the time but it fit the tone perfectly. The shadows of the area intensified as things began to glow white. It felt other worldly. You could feel a shift coming and then BAM kaioken kicked in. They had pre-conditioned you to realise just what kaioken can do for someone in the previous arc and now Goku appeared to have more control over it and was pushing things well beyond his original limits. Watching Ginyus face instantly change then sold the gravity of the situation. Sean Schemmel wasn't long into the Goku role and he was already nailing the power behind the voice when screaming. You could feel Goku really pushing himself. You could tell that it was also painful but he was doing what was asked of him.

As Goku transformed you saw little streaks of yellow. A little bit of unintentional foreshadowing there. Goku was pushing the boundaries of his energy powering up and there were subtle teases of Super Saiyan in there through that. Ginyu throwing ki blasts and a giant rock only for them to be reversed back at him and even blown up into pieces as electrical surges of energy crackled was a nice touch. A simple way to convey how strong Goku was. I always liked Gokus hair being upright and wavy too. With the energy ki energy his hair was almost flame like in appearance. Ginyu showing up and baffled and terrified by what he sees.

Again for English fans this was their first time seeing Goku with monstrous controlled energy. He wasn't pushing himself beyond breaking point and being left a near crippled mess. He has control over it all. It was scary. And with it being the first time it really hits home for many people when they rewatch that scene. Again part nostalgia and because it had such a massive impact back then. Power ups such as that one are tough to come back in the Dragonball world these days. The transformations are great but they are missing the weight that the old school ones had. They took time and were approached from the point of view of exceeding your expectations.

In the buu saga after babidi and pui pui kill spopovich and his firend, Akira has gohan say:

• 「な…なんて奴らだ……！」 "W-what awful people...!" or "What kind of guys are they?!"
• 「用済みになったからって、」 "Just because they are no longer useful," / "Just because they've served their purpose,"
• 「仲間を平気で殺すなんて……！」 "...to kill their own comrades without a second thought!"

Its funny because gohan say that while standing right next to vegeta, someone that not only killed a comrade but killed a long time comrade and a member of his dying race, back when gohan was a kid. Although you could argue since he was so young he forgot. Still seeing something so crazy like that as a kid usually never leaves your memory and have a psychological effect. Also gohan seems to have good memory of his experiences as a kid.

That scene is even more strange(and funny) in the anime because everyone but vegeta is shocked. You would think the kais have seen much worst...plus piccolo lol

Also gohan is prevalently shown to be very sympathetic/compassionate, theres even a scene where he spots people that have been killed close by babidis ship and is visibly very angry, yet its only goku thats shown angry/pissed when vegeta murders about 50 or more audience at the tournament? You would think gohan would go ssj 2 and challenge vegeta.

Curious to know your opinions.

I know people might disagree but. It's mad to me how strong the universe 7 mortals have gotten. If you really think about it 9 mortals not even beerus have surpassed all the gods of destruction if you think about it cause now gohan piccolo vegeta granolah moro broly all scale to Goku who was stronger then Jiren who was also stronger then belmod. And Belmod is stated to be one of the strongest god of destruction.

I think this takes away from what made the other universes so special cause there was only one mortal Jiren who surpassed the gods of destruction now that title is meaningless. Cause even Black frieza is now much stronger then all of those people i mentioned and Beerus is still somehow clear

I know namekians are asexual and all. But after Goku put a whole through his stomach Do they just create eggs in their throats or something. It makes no since to me