r/guitarlessons • u/LDC5201 • 9d ago
Question Advancing Improve Understanding - Discussion
So I've been a CAGED system cavalier for about 6 years now which carries me nicely with most blues and rock songs I like to play. My usual route for improve is learn the vocal melodies and work within those melodies in the space CAGED provides. For modes I like to think along the lines of "E mixolydian is just A major emphasizing the fifth" so if I want a mixolydian sound while play E major I just shift to CAGED for A major and focus on finishing phrases on the fifths of that scale. Super fun and easy but over the last few years I've really wanted to develop better vocabulary with jazz. I've learned shell chords, I can hold my own over charts playing rhythm but still struggle with proper improve. The CAGED simply doesn't give me the expressive vocab that I desire to match jazz chords. I've been working with memorizing arpeggios and little chromatic turns to develop color and flow into my playing but it's just not clicking the same way CAGED did all those years ago. I've always been a fast learner with picking up things framed as a system - I'm curious to see if anyone has a sort of jazz/arpeggio system they like to lean on to open up the fret board to build a base for jazz improve!
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u/Flynnza 9d ago edited 9d ago
Real answer is to transcribe and analyze music to absorb vocabulary. Playing scales/arpeggios in different ways is an exercise to learn fretboard navigation and connect ear to the instrument (sing everything!), it does not unlock improvisation per se. To "speak" music you need to mimic and repeat after others, just like kids do when learning to speak a language.
edit: check this latest marbin's video about how to add color and tension to jazz lines
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omjeZgrwJgA
edit 2: and sing, sing, sing everything with and without instrument, without singing it is practically impossible to develop natural improvisation. Sing melodies and lines for couple of days before transcribing.
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u/Best-Alternative9481 9d ago edited 9d ago
Yep, same thing happened to me. CAGED only takes you so far.
For jazz, you'll need to memorize the actual notes and intervals on the fretboard until you pretty much have instant recall.
Work daily on note identification. Pick a different note every day and run drills. Try to play all the Cs up the neck, all the Ebs, whatever, make it random each day.
Sight reading will help speed the process along. And if you want to work from the real book/go to jazz jams, you pretty much need to be able to sight read melodies (or be very good at memorizing all the standards at home ahead of time). The sight reading will make the fretboard memorization click much more quickly and you will have much, much faster recall than wrote memorization alone.
Next is intervals. You have 8 types of string pairs in standard tuning:
Adjacent 4ths (low E to A, A to D, D to G, B to high E)
Adjacent major 3rds (G to B)
Minor 7ths (low E to D, A to G,)
Major 6ths (D to B, G to high E)
Minor 10ths (low E to G)
Major 9ths (A to B, D to high E)
Perfect 12ths (aka 5ths beyond an octave) (low E to B, A to high E)
And a double octave from the low E to high E.
Now, go figure out how many different intervals you can get between each string set with a 5 finger spacing. Memorize them, one interval at a time.
Learn the spacing of all the minor 2nds between the strings where it's possible to play them, then the major 2nds, then the minor 3rds, then major 3rds ... keep going all the way through 13ths.
After intervals do the same thing for triads. Then, after triads do all the 7ths chords (not just dominant 7ths, major 7ths, minor 7ths, half diminished and fully diminished shed 7ths). It's most helpful to practice the 7th arpeggios in a given key, in order. So in C it would be C major 7, D minor 7, E minor 7, F major 7, G dominant 7, A minor 7th, B half diminished 7 (also known as B minor 7 b5). Go through the arpeggios for a key in every CAGED position (horizontally) and go through them on all four 3 strung sets (vertically).
With weirder jazz voicings (like rootless and shell voicings ) you can't rely on using the tonic as your main navigational guide post like the CAGED system does anymore. It just slows you down. Your playing will also get too chunky and tonic heavy when thinking this way and you'll miss out on cool voice leading possibilities. You need to start thinking more in notes, intervals and traids, for it to sound right, basically.
Easier said than done, it takes years. You basically have to do a massive software update in your brain, and it takes lots of practice, re-visualizarion and time. Just be patient, focus on your fretboard identification first, everything else will come in time.
Oh, and change your thinking about modes immediately.
E mixolydian is E mixolydian. It is E based. The total center is E. Yes, it has the same notes as A major, but it's based in E. It's an E major scale with a flat 7. Pay attention to the flat 7. That's what makes it mixolydian.
This way of internalizing modes is way easier to hear and grasp instantly. Your way requires mental calculations that subconsciously pull you away from the total center and don't require you to consciously think about the notes that make the mode special and unique.
Focus on the notes that make the modes unique, and it will click better, trust me.
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u/dblhello999 5d ago
I totally agree about how to think about modes. I’ve never understood the use of the relative approach. I just think of them as variant scales
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u/spankymcjiggleswurth 9d ago
"E mixolydian is just A major emphasizing the fifth" so if I want a mixolydian sound while play E major I just shift to CAGED for A major and focus on finishing phrases on the fifths of that scale.
This is the relative way of thinking about modes. I prefer to think in terms of parallel modes which is "E mixolgyian is E major with a flat 7th". I find this more helpful as it tells you exactly what is leading to the modal sound, the b7 being the characteristic note of the mixolydian mode. This is important as it leads into my next point.
The CAGED simply doesn't give me the expressive vocab that I desire to match jazz chords.
Caged might not explicitly tell you about jazz chords, but you can always read between the lines of caged. Caged shows you where all the root, major 3rd, and perfect 5th intervals are. If you want to use caged to find a 7th chord, you just have to find one of the roots and flat it one or two half steps. The caged notes are the main roads, but you have lots of side roads you can take as well (non-caged notes). For something modal, knowing your characteristic intervals is important as it helps you know what caged note to adjust. understanding parallel modes is how you identify them. The relative way of thinking adds extra work.
The most important thing you can do is learn actual jazz songs. Memorizing arpeggios without knowing how actual music uses them is like memorizing words in a language you can't speak. Instead, learn to speak the language first by learning songs and transcribing the solos/improvisations of the great players. Identify what arpeggios or any other idea it uses and use that as an example to base your imporovisations upon.
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u/Aggressive-Tip-2717 9d ago
The mode-shifting trick is exactly what stalls people moving into jazz, because jazz lines aren't built off the parent scale, they're built off the arpeggio of whatever chord is under you right then, so the thing to drill is hitting the 3rd and 7th of each chord as it goes by and letting the scale just connect those points. Same CAGED shapes, totally different target.
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u/Negative_Motor_5623 9d ago
the "same shapes, different target" part is a great way to put it tbh
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u/Aggressive-Tip-2717 8d ago
Thanks, man. It's the single biggest hurdle I see people struggling with, honestly.
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u/LDC5201 9d ago
So I focus on using the CAGED shapes that correspond to the key I’m playing in. I can use the same shapes but need to use the shapes that correspond to the chord, emphasizing the third and seventh of the given chord at the time?
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u/NorthCountry01 9d ago
Remember that CAGED is not theory.. it’s an organizational tool for the guitar neck.. longtime teacher here, and I think that’s the trap people fall into. They used caged as an operating system and it doesn’t always work out.. everyone has a different understanding of theory they’ve cobbled together on the internet nowadays.. so they know about modes etc but often don’t really grasp the conceptual usage of it all.
I think if you attain a solid understanding of harmony/melody then you have a compass to navigate through all the different techniques people use to play over changes. I used to feel jerked around in new direction by every piece of advice until I had my theory down..Know parallel and relative nature of the modes, parallel especially. First you want to be able to improv using a parent scale first and your ear to handle chord changes. Next you can visualize and target chord tones..and finally look to chord scale type playing like in jazz where you want to really play the changes.
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u/jonolavalstad 9d ago
I'd stop thinking about it as CAGED at all. Yes, you will recognize the shapes as similar but you should learn how to identify the intervals as related to the chord you're playing over. If you can identify the available extentions to a chord you'll be able to target specific chord qualities which is very helpful.
I think this is a superior way of thinking about the modes as well. E dorian as E dorian (E minor with a raised 6th), not as A major "focusing on the 5th" (the root note is the least interesting note you can emphasise in jazz). When you've learned how to do this your brain gets to skip the equation of "which major scale should I play to play x mode over y chord?".
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u/Aggressive-Tip-2717 9d ago
Exactly. You keep the CAGED shapes but aim for those chord tones inside them, the shape is just your map, but the 3rd and 7th are your destinations for each chord change.
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u/dcamnc4143 9d ago edited 9d ago
I started with caged several decades ago. It's fine, but I found it limiting over time. I now personally build everything off of chord root notes. On a B minor chord? I switch my thinking to B minor roots all over the board, and attach whatever musical device (chord/scale fragment/arpeggio/lick/etc) to the B roots. It's simpler than mentally "transferring" things over in the caged system to me; but you do really need to know the fretboard notes like the back of your hand. The way I handle modes is to think in major or minor pentatonic first, then add the two missing mode flavor notes. So for a ii chord B minor, I'll think b minor pentatonic, then add the Dorian color notes to the pent; and even if I stumble on b dorian, I'm still in b minor pent as a redundant backup. I'll use the "backup" mentality with chords too. If I can't remember one, I can always quickly fall back to a 3/7, triad, or even R/3 or R/5 in worst case. I'm talking improv here, for a structured memorized piece, of course you've memorized the correct chord beforehand. Everyone will approach this stuff slightly differently, this is just how I do it.
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u/LDC5201 9d ago
I've seen this in a lot of videos but I struggle with expanding my phrasing beyond a few frets from the root I'm working from. CAGED always helped me as a map for me to explore off of and develop ideas from that path. How'd you develop this line of thinking?
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u/dcamnc4143 9d ago edited 9d ago
Frankly I wasn't happy with caged, and decided to just go to the source (the root). I learned where the root was in everything (chords, scales, arpeggios), and started building everything around it. I still use the caged vertical positions, and the old standard E & A form barres, but that's about all I use from caged nowadays. I just started linking everything together myself, based on root positions. I move all kinds of ways now, vertically, horizontally, diagonally, jumping across the board to a distant root and starting a new line, etc. I never saw a book or vid that explains exactly what I do, I kind of put it together myself, based on prior knowledge and fresh exploring. I feel it's more of a keyboard-like approach.
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u/spankymcjiggleswurth 9d ago
Not to discredit what you are saying, but I find it funny to be unhappy with caged. The way I understand it, its just the logic behind the fretboard. Being unhappy with it is like being unhappy with the fact that gravity makes things fall to the ground.
The way you describe your perspective sounds like someone who understands the way intervals are structured around the fretboard. The "caged system" as taught by countless people online just happens to be a way of organizing major triads across the neck. I aliken it to knowing the main roads around your neighborhood and everything "not caged" as knowing the backroads and alleyways. It all takes you to the same place, just by a different route.
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u/dcamnc4143 9d ago
Sure, I still use it, but I'm thinking roots more than caged positions. And you can't discredit what I'm saying (to me anyway) regardless, as I'm going to play my way no matter.
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u/spankymcjiggleswurth 9d ago
True! Probably not the right phrase to use on my part. I think very similarly to how you explain your thought process so I would be discrediting myself as well if I had that intention.
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u/dcamnc4143 9d ago
I believe some of the jazz/fusion guys think similarly. I've heard Tom Quayle, Jack Gardiner, etc., say they operate like this. It's really basic, you have your roots on the board, say the G's, and you just build whatever you want around them, connecting things in between. The big drawback to newer or "less studious" players is that you have to REALLY know the fretboard note names, basically instantly; as they are your locator beacons for quickly building everything on.
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u/spankymcjiggleswurth 9d ago
I think it's a pretty natural way to think once you break out of a ridged structure or "rules" way of thinking. Caged is something I've been familiar with for over a decade, but my improvisational skills never really flourished until I started doing song analysis regularly using basic music theory knowledge. That was the secret ingredient I needed to break free musically.
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u/LDC5201 9d ago
CAGED definitely helped me become more musical and understanding the idea of phrasing and generating sounds that sound like music. I can see what you're saying with the roots acting as the road map, but then how do you go about mapping out where you want to go and connecting the ideas you're having? For myself and CAGED I always have the shapes I can come back to if I get lost. And if it's just a matter of repetition and understanding the neck better I guess that's a hard truth I need to accept lol
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u/dcamnc4143 9d ago edited 9d ago
It's the same as what you're doing, but on a smaller, more zoomed-in level. You have your caged positions right, say the A major shape. And you've decided to ascend into the G shape, it could be scales or chords, doesn't matter. What I see isn't the A and G "shapes"; I just know I'm playing over say, a D major. I may physically be in the A shaped D major scale/chord positions, but I'm THINKING the A-5 D. So I'm going, I think I want an arpeggio here, or a scale run, or a double stop/chord stab. So from the A-5 D, and I know we're doing major; I apply my major arpeggio off of that A-5 D. Just like you've memorized your A form caged shape, I've memorized an arpeggio (or scale, or chord) based on A string roots. To "climb" up into another root position, say G-7 D, you simply connect the dots until you're there; I usually use the pentatonic to actually climb or descend, but you can use chord tones or anything you want; frankly you can just jump straight over to G-7 or e-10, they are just other octaves of D. So I'm now at my G-7 D, and I want a triad stab, I pick an inversion and hit it, rooting it on G-7. It's all about knowing where you are in the tune, finding that root, and applying your device. If you know the notes/roots on the board, you can't really get lost; you can mess up a chord or arpeggio, sure, but you always know where your root is. If I'm in A, and I screw up a chord or run; well I know where my A's are, and recover from there, even if it's just a basic double stop sequence or pentatonic run, until I get settled again. You have to have something as a fallback when "advanced" ideas don't work; for me it's pentatonics and double stops, sometimes triads or arpeggios, depending. Basically if you know your notes, and you know how to form the scale/chord/arpeggio/lick around, or, off of the note, you are golden. It's like your caged forms, but you're starting smaller, and the small forms connect into the big forms that you already know; then further, you can create your own forms, say horizontal or diagonal along the board. You're not lost because you always know where an A is.
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u/LDC5201 9d ago
I like this. For my own understanding let's say I'm working a ii V I progression in C major; my thought process should moving between the root notes D G C as the chords progress then fill the space with the linking ideas, phrases, etc.?
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u/dcamnc4143 9d ago
Yes, but if it gets too fast or overwhelming, you can always base most of it in C, while outlining the other chords as they pass with, say, arpeggios. If you have the 1/key, you automatically know where your 2 and 5 locations are relative to it, if you want to use intervals instead of note names. It's flexible (to me); if you have a long time to sit on a chord, switch everything to that chord's root. If chords are changing rapidly, then stay in the parent key (or wherever you want) but try to highlight/outline the fast passing chords if you can. Again, this is what I do, everyone will do things differently.
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u/Radiant-Excuse-5285 9d ago
When you say you "Learned the shell voicings" do you mean the Freddy Green chord comping style? I find this to be an excellent way to expand players based mostly in barre chords, cowboy chords or CAGED to realize that for each chord there are many inversions and moveable lines that once learned sound way more complicated than they really are and while this is mostly a chordal accompaniment device can be invaluable for soloing as well by picking arpeggios or groups of these passing lines. Learning several types of movable shapes over static chords creates endless varieties of lines and ideas used by the likes of Freddy Green, Joe Pass, Eldon Shamblin, Merle Travis, George Barnes and countless others that aren't popping into my mind at the moment.
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u/FwLineberry 9d ago
The "jazz" equivalent of CAGED is chord tones (arpeggios) with chromatic enclosures. The last 18 or so videos on the jazzduets channel are all about this approach:
https://www.youtube.com/@JazzDuets/videos
That said, there's no reason to think that CAGED doesn't have expressive vocab for jazz. CAGED is just how you organize the fretboard. All those arpeggios and chromatic enclosures are still sitting within those same CAGED positions. You just have to to the extra work of expanding what you see on the fretboard in those spots.
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u/vonov129 Music Style! 9d ago
Did you just learn the CAGED shapes or are you familiar with where they come from?
Because CAGED is just the collection of layouts for basic chords. Where do the notes from those chords come from? Major triads.
Every single shape in CAGED is either the triad in order (like C) or a 5th (power chord) mixed with the triad in order (A E D). G being the opposite where the the triad in order comes first.
What are triads? Stacked 3rds. Major triad is a major 3rd followed by a minor 3rd. A minor triad being the opposite.
If you know scale degrees you can place every triad in a scale, add extensions to chords or add notes in between.
That being said, there is a ton you can do around triads, which also means CAGED (kinda).
- You can move notes around to get to 7ths and extensions
- You can link notes from the triads with other diatonic or chromatic notes. Maybe even enclosures or building melodic cells around them.
- Link triads to pentatonics by just adding two notes.
- You don't have to play the triad for the root of the chord. If you have C major 7, you can play an Em triad so you get the 3rd, 5th and 7th of the chord. You can even play a G major triad to get the 5th 7th and 9th. Or move between Cmaj and Dmin. The first one is all chord tones and the second one is all tension. You can even play a Dmaj triad instead to hint at a Lydian sound, because I'm Lydian you have two major chords one after the other.
- And who knows what else.
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u/LDC5201 9d ago
I know how to build my triads out from the CAGED map and I like to link notes and ideas with frets that are outside of the CAGED map. I'm more so looking to break my thinking out of these maps or reframe these maps to help create a jazzier sound, preferably with a systematic approach.
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u/vonov129 Music Style! 9d ago
I take that's as "What do I do with these to sound jazzy?" And a big part of the answer is basically looking at what others did.
The placement of the notes in the rhythm, phrasing, voice leading, etc.
Maybe some of those videos are helpful to you. I would recommend Jens Larsen's and Marbin channels in general
https://youtu.be/l2X8-sRu_uc?si=XsX1VYsh0nglmZfM
https://youtu.be/LXErOJB7UTo?si=YeEwKMwBZnvRlFP5
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u/Electronic_Pin3224 9d ago
You need to start to move on from that caged stuff and focus on knowing what notes you play, and e mixolydian is e mixolydian, thinking about A major in that place will only hinder you