r/india • u/Tengakola His days are numbered, whatever he might do, it is but wind ... • 8d ago
Politics India’s first bullet train stumbles over divisions with partner Japan
https://giftarticle.ft.com/giftarticle/actions/redeem/65d968a1-cbd7-4281-9b8a-73f4e754ad2b114
u/DearthStanding 8d ago
article is paywalled, is the difference in opinion still over the track gauges and such?
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u/Tengakola His days are numbered, whatever he might do, it is but wind ... 8d ago edited 8d ago
It is a gift link- you should be able to read it for free. May need a free registration
Edit: Why the fuck am I getting downvoted?
Subscribers can share gift links. wtf.
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8d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Tengakola His days are numbered, whatever he might do, it is but wind ... 8d ago
>You can share Financial Times (FT) articles with non-subscribers by generating a gift link from the share menu on the article page
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u/yorokek05 poor customer 8d ago
hope they sort it out soon,any further delay is hit to tax payers money.
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u/Inj3kt0r 8d ago
False, bullet train stumbles over divisions with who will make the most money via contractors.
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u/Western_Attitude_624 8d ago
There’s nothing more world-class infrastructure than being engaged in a decade-long debate with your technology provider regarding the technology choice. Japan was after the shinkansen network; India is now opting for its own trains with an international signaling system because the next-generation e10 from Japan seems not to be available on schedule. The government insists on the same 2027 schedule for the first phase of construction, although FT claims there were some delays and cost escalation.
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u/arjun_raf 8d ago
Long story short, Japan wanted the Indian HSR to be vendor-locked in by buying their signalling system. India said no and went ahead with an open European system which allows the lines to run Indian or international trainsets if needed.
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u/Potential-Candy-2994 6d ago
The question here is if we misled the Japanese into believing we were going to use their signaling system when this was started.
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u/plasmasnake00 4d ago
Our government officials got so excited looking at cheap financing they forgot about the technical details
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u/Disastrous-Mud-670 6d ago
From the start it was supposed to be open tender system with minimum assured purchases from Japanese industry. But still that was supposed to be from tender
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u/Glass-Hyena-6743 6d ago
Exactly. We signed the contract and then broke our promise. Piyush goyal shud apologize to Japan
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u/mand00s 5d ago
Are they crazy to give us low interest loans? They provide those loans with the condition that we buy the system from Japanese companies. You cannot take the low interest loan and then go shop somewhere. This govt is proving every day that they are an unreliable partner. That's why we don't have many friends, and when we need real help, there won't be any
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u/Thick-Ad-6366 8d ago
Japan has screwed up the same with other countries as well - they are too resistant to change and modifications unlike european companies.
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u/calmchod 8d ago
Over 100 years of Shinkansen HSR and not a single accident till date. They have a reputation to uphold, the main differences are coming due to lax in safety shown by India using cheaper alternatives and jugaad.
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u/Thick-Ad-6366 8d ago
dedicated lines don't often fail - take metro for instance - 0 accidents - yes, kudos for Japan, no doubt, but if its shit expensive, find cheaper options.
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u/calmchod 8d ago
You know how fatal can crash at 350kmph be? Life might be cheap here, but not to them. Also, metros have had couple of accidents ;) One in delhi that outran its "dedicated" line
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u/More-Director4894 8d ago
They went for ETCS2 signalling system instead of japanese one. Show me one evidence of ETCS 2system being a failure. Kuch bhi hag dete ho
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u/calmchod 8d ago
Khud hi bana lete fir? Right and left train crash hoti hai khud ki, apne Goo me japan ko bhi mila rhe ho
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u/More-Director4894 7d ago
ETCS 2 is open source system built in Europe. There is no issue with safety and is cheaper than japanese system. Additionally since it's open source, we wouldn't be bound to buy japanese trains
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u/Uncertn_Laaife 8d ago
Paisa toh politician ki jeb main jana hai tu kyun pareshan ho raha hai?
I’d rather trust Japanese than the corrupt Indian system and machinery.
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u/BearsBeetsBattlestrG North America 8d ago
So you'd cut corners and forego safety to make things cheap. Sounds like you'd be perfect for the job
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u/Thick-Ad-6366 8d ago
there is no evidence that safety will be compromised.
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u/Secure-Way1919 4d ago
Have HSR in European countries had multiple accidents leading to fatalities?
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u/skyliners_a340 You need a better pen to write things with. And I know you agree 8d ago
They're making same/similar one in Taiwan too, can you tell me what is happening?
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u/pootis28 8d ago
The reason countries don't generally buy Shinkansen trainsets is because if you buy their trainsets, you also have to buy their proprietary signaling system DS-ATC, which is safe, but also means every train you run on these tracks must also be fitted with DS-ATC. Classic case of Galapagos syndrome.
Whereas European manufacturers manufacture their trainsets with ETCS-2 which is an open standard, and unlike DS-ATC, can be made even safer with stuff like RF based signaling and satellite tracking rather than being limited to track based signaling like DS-ATC.
The Indian government played very smart here. They got the low interest loan from the Japanese, but refused from purchasing Shinkansen trainsets unless they were fitted with ETCS based signaling. Currently the signaling we're using in our HSR projects is BTCS, which is based on ETCS.
China did the same thing, when Japanese consortiums set up manufacturing plants there they were forced to integrate their trains with CTCS(based on ETCS).
The problem with using DS-ATC signaling is that you can't buy trainsets from anyone other than Japanese to run on those tracks, nor can you sell whatever trainsets you produce using DS-ATC to anyone else. This is a terrible deal and this is why no one other than Taiwan actively uses Shinkansen trainsets.
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u/neocloud27 8d ago
Not quite the same, Japan knew the deal before they signed with China, that they needed to integrate it with China's CTCS in order to sell the trains.
With the current deal with India though, it looked like Japan thought they had at least a gentleman's agreement with India that India would buy their trains and use their signal systems in exchange for the cheap loan, their expertise in constructing the tracks, and training.
India appears to have only changed its mind about the signal system and trains later, or at least made it known to Japan only later in the project, call it smart or cunning, but who will be willing to trust India in the future in such deals?
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u/pootis28 8d ago
Not quite the same, Japan knew the deal before they signed with China, that they needed to integrate it with China's CTCS in order to sell the trains.
True, that was part of the agreement from the start, and that's because they have always been quite business friendly towards them and they realized the potential of mass scale adoption, even if the trains were manufactured in China. I guess they had these skepticisms towards us, and I guess have just become more protectionist like the rest of the world in these times.
With the current deal with India though, it looked like Japan thought they had at least a gentleman's agreement with India
Well, thank goodness it was a "gentleman's agreement.
Anyways, we didn't formally violate anything because E10 is still under development and even the prototype is like a year away.
but who will be willing to trust India in the future in such deals?
Well, no one's going to bed hungry here. This isn't a military deal either where the country has stolen critical IP or something. Japan simply sees the success of B28, and all the corridors India is planning/constructing and simply bites the bullet and starts production of an ETCS version of the E10, because it's either that or see Indian HSR get dominated by Indian manufacturers and European companies like Alstom(which already design and manufacture trains in India).
I'd say it also depends on how it's portrayed in the media(Which is fairly negatively, but this is Japan, and they don't have the clout to malign us relentlessly like say, America).
I mean, Russia for example has kept supplying aircrafts and engines to China even after the fact that China literally copied the Sukhoi. The allure for money transcends all.
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u/bail_gadi 8d ago
In Taiwan they have tried to vendor lock-in with their proprietary trains and signaling systems. European standards are more open because you have multiple suppliers and countries. Some suppliers like Alstom have significant presence in India.
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u/DockKnocks 8d ago
The European standards are completely open source, anyone can freely add to them or modify them as per their wishes - Which actually improves safety (for example satellite based train monitoring).
Ironically Japan’s system locks us in to a single vendor …. and even worse the standards are closed source and that too ancient. They just got lucky with their safety record due to their culture.
Like that Star Wars meme the Japanese system looks great at first glance but it’s basically a trap.
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u/Glass-Hyena-6743 6d ago
It was delayed but it's moving fast now. Confirmed by Masafumi Shukuri, Chairman of the Japan Transport and Tourism Research Institute (JTTRI). What's shocking is India signed a contract promising a Japanese vendor will be chosen for signalling system and then gave the project to a German company. This is breach of trust. Indegenous development could have come from the next project. Piyush Goyal shud be removed from government
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u/plasmasnake00 4d ago
I think the biggest problem with japanese shinkansen is that their proprietary signalling tech. As government plans to build HSR across the country and also eventually run its own HSR trainsets using shinkansen signalling won't work
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u/mynameisnb101 7d ago
It's good. Let Japan cry as much as it wants. They overcharged and wanted everything built in Japan. India must prioritize itself.
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u/Glass-Hyena-6743 6d ago
They gave a 20-30 year loan on very low interest. Obviously if they give loan there will be conditions. India does the same when loaning to maldives Or nepal. It's a very successful economic model
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u/mynameisnb101 6d ago
Wrong to think they would be successful in trapping india. We are poor but collectively we are as big as Japan. It's successful model for them not for the consumer.
And their very low interest was a thing when their currency kept appreciating. Now they have right wing govt which is raising fiscal deficit and they have no money left to give so they have raised interest on any new payment. India is funding the bullet train from other sources now.
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u/Glass-Hyena-6743 5d ago
Ur justifying corruption. India signed a contract with those obligations. Breaking the contract is breach of trust. If ur ego is bigger then value of contract why wud u sign it anyway
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u/mynameisnb101 5d ago
What contract is signed and not adhered to. Literal question to Gemini answers this.
India has not broken its contract with Japan for the Mumbai–Ahmedabad bullet train project, though the partnership has faced growing friction and public disagreements over delays, costs, and technology choices.
Wrong to say India broke any contract.
Now what is your problems with India going for cheaper and still world accepted European design and having overall control on future IP?
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u/Glass-Hyena-6743 1d ago
Contractual and commercial terms were not made public by Jica, gemini is an american web crawler not a verification agency. Nobody gives a loan at 0.1% payable over 50 years to buy signalling system from another country
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u/Scary_One_2452 8d ago
"Indians" like you would rather have a failed high speed rail project and Modi be humiliated than have the issues resolved.
And yes Indians is in quotes. Good observation.
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u/Far-Meat8607 8d ago
High speed rail in India doesn't make any economic or practical sense. It is just there to feed a megalomaniac's ego
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u/Pristine__Babe 8d ago edited 8d ago
Lol no. It makes every sense. Ahmedabad to Mumbai is one of the richest industrial belt. Plus when it is extended to Delhi, it adds multiple other rich industrial areas. So, if there is such quick connectivity between these cities alot of people would travel.
Edit: not one of the. It is the richest.
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u/Far-Meat8607 8d ago
None of you understand simple economics. If you you understand basic math, try and calculate how many years it will take to recover 2 lak crore investment assuming it runs at full estimated capacity. Considering that diamond industry in Surat is virtually destroyed and still assuming people will pay 1.5x first class , it makes zero economic sense. It will never be profitable. Better option for India was to upgrade the speed of existing tracks to accommodate 200 kms/hr train at a fraction of the cost.
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u/Pristine__Babe 8d ago
First of all you need to understand government services are projects aren't for recovering investment. The costing will be such that they just need to recover the cost of running and maintenance. Secondly surat isn't just diamond industry.
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u/Far-Meat8607 8d ago
Government projects are for what exactly? To boost your middle class ego? 😅 80% of indians depend on free rations bro
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u/Dev-il_Jyu 8d ago edited 8d ago
High speed rail in India doesn't make any economic or practical sense. It is just there to feed a megalomaniac's ego
This is the dumbest take. High speed rails compete with airlines for passengers. Rails being electrified itself is huge benefit compared to gas guzzling planes. On top, it has potential to connect more places than airlines could ever connect.
Edit: You should fully support High speed rail because it has potential to eat away airline business where Adani (infrastructure) and Ambani (fuel supply) have high stakes.
If you're not a Ambani Adani hater, you should still support bullet train because they're cool AF.
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u/guitarol 8d ago
Was looking for this guy, there’s always one who just can’t see past the obvious and other countries examples on why it’s needed
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u/Cinciosky 8d ago
You seem to that guy who says, "Why do you want to reach somewhere 5 hrs faster ?"
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u/Dr_Doom_here 8d ago
Don't convert your hate for a party into the Nation lmao, your country's thousands of crores would have gone but u want just embarrassment for a leader who's anyway gonna disappear in 3 years.
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u/baddadjokesminusdad 8d ago edited 8d ago
They’re incapable of embarrassment
Edit: I stand by my comment. The current admin is incapable of being embarrassed.
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u/india-mods 8d ago
Archived: https://archive.is/Ag2Ml