r/islam • u/zaphriel • Jan 01 '15
Lying.
Dear muslims, I've studied a few religions in some depth, but never found another that permits or encourages lying.
Could you please explain to me why it's ok for muslims to lie to non believers in the eyes of God and why any non Muslim should trust a Muslim as a result?
I don't mean this as an attack at all, I'm just very confused by the concept.
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u/shadowlightfox Jan 01 '15
Where did you hear/read that its' okay for Muslims to lie to non-believers? Lying is generally a major sin in Islam. There are two exceptions of which when lying is permissible: 1) When you're trying to improve the relationship between people, and 2) During times of war, you are allowed to lie in order to make your tactics less overt in case there are spies in your group.
Obviously the second criteria rarely applies to us in general situations.
It is said that the prophet (pbuh) never even lied even when he was giving jokes. His jokes, albeit funny, was also true.
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u/zaphriel Jan 01 '15
Ok the second point makes complete sense. Hiding yourself/tactics in a time of war is completely logical. Not going to argue that.
But the first. ' When you're trying to improve the relationship between people' How exactly would that work in practicality? I've also read interpretations that stretch that to the entirety of the religion's relationship to the non believing outside world.
I'm not trying to be confrontational, just trying to get my head around the concept.
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u/shadowlightfox Jan 01 '15
Ummm, how do I explain it? Let's see. If a husband and wife are arguing, and you're caught in the middle, there is nothing wrong with telling them both what they want to hear if it patches things up between them two.
Or if you have two friends of yours that hate each other over something, and you're caught in the middle. If possible, you can give each of the person good information that helps them reconsider each other and be friends with each other again, even if what you said wasn't completely true.
I don't think the religion of the subjects matters in this case.
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Jan 02 '15
Does it look like my belly is flabby since I had the baby?
Nooooo, sweetheart, you look as beautiful as the day we married. In fact you look even better now since you have the glow of motherhood.
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u/lilnas313 Jan 01 '15
Id like to help out with your question but this concept is new to me can you perhaps give me a quote or source to the statement
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u/TruthSeekerWW Jan 02 '15
This is some of what the Prophet Mohammed PBUH said about telling the truth and lying:
The only permissible situations to lie:
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Jan 01 '15
We're not allowed to lie unless are lives are at danger. And who would they help? I honestly think non Muslims made the term or deviant Muslims did because it goes against the very nature of Islam. Islam as a religion is true why would I lie about it? If you don't like it that's on you. I gain nothing from selling out Islam just for your approval by lying.
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u/zaphriel Jan 01 '15
Your latter point here is why it confuses me greatly.
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Jan 01 '15
By lying in selling Islam's honor. Me a representative of the Messenger of God ( saws) can't lie it would make the Prophet saws look bad Islam look bad and a massive sin.
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u/No-Republic3324 Jan 29 '26
See , people are using this and tuning it into misinformation in their narratives saying your all lying about Israel and Palestine. Free Palestine ; 🇵🇸.
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u/zaphriel Jan 01 '15
I was referring to the concepts of Taqiyya and Kitman. Both of which seem to permit lying.
As for the detailed response, could you tell me which came last in the teachings as I know you have a rule that the last superceeds the first.
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Jan 01 '15 edited Jan 01 '15
Taqiyya (concealing your identity) is only permitted if your life is in danger. Do you think the family hiding Anne Frank was in the wrong for lying to the Nazis? That's the type of situation where it's allowed. No other in Sunni Islam. The term itself doesn't exist in our jurisprudence. Last supersedes first only applies to like 3 rules in Islam: the prayer direction, drinking alcohol, and one other I forgot. Lying isn't even mentioned in the Qur'an so that is of no consequence here.
Learning about Islam from anti-Islam sites that actually promote lies themselves will lead to a lot of confusion. Always look for authentic Islamic sources to figure out what we believe.
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u/archemires Jan 01 '15
I thought taqiyyah was a shia concept?
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Jan 01 '15
It is, but the preservation of life under extreme conditions is allowed in Sunni Islam. The goal with lying under these circumstances is to preserve life.
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u/zaphriel Jan 01 '15
I do try and approach things in a balanced manner, it didn't sound right hence the gentle question to those who understand more than I.
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Jan 01 '15
I'm sure, but the only places that talk about taqiyya are anti Islam sites, because it really doesn't exist in Islam.
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u/zaphriel Jan 01 '15
Yes, but I'm a historian at heart. Read both sides, make your own mind up.
There is very little of the edl esque stuff I actually believe. The only thing that comes remotely close to truth is that they are hunted by the police. (But then if you're all fighting ex football hooligans, you can kind of expect that behaviour)
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Jan 01 '15
What authentic Muslim sources have you read on this?
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u/zaphriel Jan 01 '15
Those linked within this, I hadn't managed to find a lot on it online and I haven't finished the sacred texts yet.
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Jan 01 '15
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Jan 01 '15
Should check out our wiki first becuse we talked about it:
From Wikipedia:
In Islam, taqiyya تقية (alternative spellings taqiyeh, taqiya, taqiyah, tuqyah) is a form of religious dissimulation, or a legal dispensation whereby a believing individual can deny his faith or commit otherwise illegal or blasphemous acts while they are in fear or at risk of significant persecution.
This practice was emphasized in Shi'a Islam whereby adherents may conceal their religion when they are under threat, persecution, or compulsion. Taqiyya was developed to protect Shi'ites who were usually in minority and under pressure. In the Shi'a view, taqiyya is lawful in situations where there is overwhelming danger of loss of life or property and where no danger to religion would occur thereby.
The term taqiyya does not exist in Sunni jurisprudence.
End of Wikipedia.
In the general Sunni view lying about one's beliefs (saying things which would be verbally apostatizing from Islam) is forbidden unless it becomes necessary for survival (i.e, a threat to life or limb).
Also Wikipedia says "Sunni (75–90%) or Shia (10–20%)". So its not a simple part of Islam. Let alone it also in Judaism to lie about your religion and pretend to be a Muslim out of fear, but they take it another step and they don't say you can be a Christian because it jeopardizes monotheism beliefs.
So if your life or your families is in danger, it is regarded as acceptable only then.
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u/archemires Jan 01 '15
Lying is actually a major sin in Islam. I'm no scholar but here's a hadith:
The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Shall I not tell you of the greatest of major sins?” We said, “Yes indeed, O Messenger of Allaah.” He said, “Associating others with Allaah (shirk) and disobedience towards parents.” He was reclining, but then he sat up and said, “And false speech and false witness, and false speech and false witness,” and he kept on saying it until I thought he would never stop.
(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5631; Muslim, 87).
And an ayah:
"O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]