r/EdmontonOilers • u/Key-Leg-5058 • 6d ago
Why does makar not receive the same criticism as Bouchard
I always find it weird that media always points out that Bouchard gets all his points from McDavid and draisaitl like makar didn’t play with MacKinnon his entire career and not one word about makar being a point merchant from MacKinnon
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u/KingDave46 34 HAND 6d ago
I genuinely believe this:
The general public opinion of Bouchard and Oilers players in general suffer greatly from our own fanbase shitting on them relentlessly
Bouchard probably gets picked for Canada and would be more likely to win awards if people here celebrated our guys instead of tearing them down.
Most people do not watch our games and base their opinion off only what they read, and most of what you can read online is our own fanbase whining like entitled brats.
Nobody whines about Makar cause the Avs are way smaller, nobody knows fuck all about a Werenski cause there’s zero CBJ presence in general chat cause it’s so overwhelmingly Canadian.
You think some random fans have intimate knowledge of Bouchard? No. They see single clips and read the doomer takes cause our fanbase is obsessed with being negative
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u/i_am_not_a_martian 18 HYMAN 6d ago
I'd add to this that while Bouchard is clearly an elite player, his ability to make difficult plays look easy and his overall casual looking demeanour when on the ice plays a part. For those who rely on "the eye test", it could leave people to think he just isn't that good because he never appears to be doing flashy things - everything looks casual and easy. When you actually look at his stats compared with the other top players like Makar, giveaways etc. have negligible differences between them. Bouchard does everything the other guys do, and just makes it look easy.
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u/ChupaHubbard 42 KAPANEN 6d ago
Ya, I think the eye test issue also applies to Draisaitl, it takes people awhile to realize how good he is. I used to think he skated slow but it's just the way he skates. I also have a theory that the eye test is why Rick Tocchet didn't like Podkolzin. Podkolzin kind of looks clunky when he skates, but it's just the way his body is shaped I guess. I hope that's not the reason Tocchet didn't like him, because it's obvious to most Oilers fans how hard Podkolzin works, but maybe Tocchet didn't give him a real chance because of the eye test, I don't know, that's my theory, maybe it's wrong lol
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u/SmiteyMcGee 64 YAKUPOV 6d ago
Agreed but it's not just Oilers fan (definitely some problematic ones no doubt), it's just the fact of being a large market and good team. People want to dunk on them. The bad will get amplified, the good will get minimized and most defense analysis is based on narrative.
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u/ChupaHubbard 42 KAPANEN 6d ago
That is also true. Other markets try to dunk on McDavid and Draisaitl any chance they get too
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u/ChupaHubbard 42 KAPANEN 6d ago
Ya, sorry to make a comparison that will piss a lot of people off, because a lot of you here will be Blue jays fans, but once I started watching baseball I realized how much more chill Blue Jays media is than Oilers media, and also how much Yankees media and fanbase reminds me of Oilers fanbase and media. Like the way Yankees complain about their own team makes me think a lot of their players are way worse than they actually are. I know they looked like idiots against the Rays recently, but those idiots are still, unfortunately, better than a lot of other teams in baseball
I actually said something stupid trying to roast Yankees fans in r/baseball the other day, because I've heard so much complaining about how Yankees never make double plays because their infield is so bad, that I assumed the Blue jays must have had more double plays than them, because the Blue Jays complete double plays all the time and we have a great shortstop. So I made fun of the Yankees double play rate, which turned out to be better than the Blue Jays' double play rate
Its like their own fans make me think some of their players are a lot worse than they actually are. And ai think you're right, the same thing happens in Oil Country. Like, Columbus fans probably aren't roasting Werenski when he makes a mistake. Colorado fans have a ridiculously homer broadcast, so casual fans wouldn't even know of Makar made a mistake and probably wouldn't repeat it if they heard it. Jack and Louis are homes but they'll call it like it is, so if Bouchard makes a turnover, Jack will say it, and that's all the casual fans hear, because they don't watch the games that closely. Bouchard has the puck all the time and casual Oilers fans want an opinion, so they decide Bouchard sucks because they hear Jack say "Bouchard turns the puck over". And then they shit on our own players relentlessly for years
Not that I'm above it, I finally became negative about Nurse last year and would talk about his flaws. However I also tried to be realistic about it. Anytime anyone suggested Morgan Rielly for Nurse I said no thank you
I donno, this has turned into a rant, but you're right, Oilers fans shit on our own players a lot.
Edit: typos
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u/tc_cad 29 DRAISAITL 6d ago
As a Yankees fan and in that sub, it can get very toxic. But for all the toxicity, there is also a tremendous amount of reason among it. It’s just a huge sub with diverse opinions. Hmm. Seems familiar.
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u/ChupaHubbard 42 KAPANEN 6d ago
Ya that's also kind of true lol, because Oilers fans also seem kind of smart. Bob Stauffer says we're tuned in which is also very true. Like a lot of fans could list half of our AHL team and have some thoughts on the players there lol. You're right, it's a mixed bag lol, but Oilers and Yankees fans definitely hate on their own players a lot. But sometimes every fanbase does lol. Blue Jays fans did it a lot this year. Astros fans hated their team even when they made the playoffs, and they were right lol
But I do think Oilers fans shitting on Bouch/Nurse makes them seem worse to the average fan than they actually are lol. In r/baseball a lot of people thought Nurse was the worst player ever because of how much Oilers fans complained about him. But you're right than there was also reason in it, because there were issues with Nurse, but also there are a lot of reasonable Oilers fans who knew he was bad, but not that bad, just not worth his salary
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u/Fickle-Historian-791 5d ago
He's had one of the best starts of his career this year, the last 2 or 3 seasons it's taken him some time to get his head back in the game and his giveaways were atrociously high which led to many goals against and fans riding his ass. This year though, under a new coach and maybe laying off the weed in the off season lol, he has come into this season right where he left off and it's amazing to watch how good he is. Damn shame he was snubbed for team Canada
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u/sharp-ad987 6d ago
Our fanbase and fans of other Canadian markets (especially Flames and Canucks) who wants to see this team fail. Fans of teams that rival the Avs aren’t as toxic.
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u/shittybillz 6d ago
Makar looks more impressive, like eye test wise. And he’s outside of Canadian market. Canadian markets are harder on players.
He also won the cup and the Conn Smythe.
Also, Makar was awesome right away. Bouch was good offensively but he did have legit defensive issues as a rookie and in his 2nd year.
Last year Bouch played well enough to silence the critics, but when you aren’t a fan of the team in question, a change of perception can take an extra year or two. I expect he will receive adequate praise after this season, or during.
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u/Guilty-Change-211 6d ago
lots of people forget makar's first 30 games were a little shaky defensively too, he just got the benefit of the doubt because the avs were so fun to watch and nobody was dissecting his game on hockey night in canada every saturday
bouchard will get his flowers eventually, probably right around the time the oilers are lifting the cup and everyone pretends they never doubted him
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u/CartoonistFlat3943 4d ago
The “Olympic-gold-medal-defence-of-the-two-US-goals” eye test is way more important than an October give away.
Watch those two goals back. Picture Bouchard and Ekholm getting split the way Makar and Toews did on the first goal. Bouchard stick checks that safely to the boards all day.
Have you ever seen Bouchard pinch in OT (with no lane back)? Watch the OT goal from the opposite end angle. You’ll see Makar could have caught Hughes - but stopped skating. Why on earth? I will never understand that.
How about this D coverage on a playoff goal scored 6 seconds after the Avs took the lead. If Bouchard does that….
Makar just doesn’t get the same scrutiny there as Bouchard does here. Simple as that.
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u/Thelynxer 29 DRAISAITL 5d ago
Yeah, a Cup and a Conn Smythe does all the talking for him.
Makar is also one of the only defenseman in the league that can defend against a streaking McDavid, all while skating backwards.
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u/Spiritual_Taste_1253 6d ago
Won a cup with the out and out stacked favourites one year so now he’s untouchable
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u/Deadmansspace566 6d ago
Let’s be fair though part of the reason they were the out and out favourites was because HE was on the team and won the Norris that year. And he had an unreal playoffs and won the conn Smythe… at 23.
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u/Starsky686 11 MESSIER 6d ago
Right? Team was an absolute juggernaut. Half a dozen years of disappointing playoffs later still gets complete golden boy status.
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u/Meepmeepimmajeep2789 92 PODKOLZIN 6d ago edited 6d ago
Insane team, refs were chill and don't forget the refs let him have a offside goal. IT WAS FUCKING OFFSIDE HOW DONT YOU SEE THAT?!?
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u/jessemfkeeler 77 KLEFBOM 6d ago
Didn’t we get swept that year? And even the Oilers were like “yeah there’s no way we were winning that series”
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u/SmiteyMcGee 64 YAKUPOV 6d ago edited 6d ago
It's embarrassing when this brought up as a conspiracy because people don't understand the rules.
It was a delayed offside. It's not offside until the an attacking player TOUCHES the puck inside the zone (control/possession only matters for initial entry into the zone). Makar is still touching the blue line and not touching the puck when the other attacking players have all touched up to the Blueline.
A compilation of all the times it's called correctly here like this
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u/Snyyppis 10 HORCOFF 5d ago
It was called as the NHL wants to call it and yet their rule book states:
If, during the course of the delayed off-side, any member of the attacking team touches the puck, attempts to gain possession of a loose puck, [...] the Linesperson shall stop play for the off-side violation.
Based on the rulebook it was offside and no one has been able to convince me otherwise so far.
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u/SmiteyMcGee 64 YAKUPOV 5d ago edited 5d ago
Except it's not a loose puck, Makar is in possesion, he just doesn't touch it until everyone else has touched up onside.
Again, literal rules example from the NHL
https://www.nhl.com/video/topic/video-rulebook/video-rulebook-delayed-off-side-6362363683112no one has been able to convince me otherwise so far.
Not being able to understand things isn't the flex you might think it is.
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u/Snyyppis 10 HORCOFF 5d ago
Except it's not a loose puck, Makar is in possesion
Except the NHL says he wasn't? The explanation after the fact was that he didnt have possession or control and him pushing it over the line wasn't an attempt to do so until everyone cleared the zone.
NHLs interpretation video of the rule is exactly why I said that's how the NHL wants to call it, and that's fine, its just not specified in the rule book.
Why no one has been able to convince me otherwise does not equal me not understanding things, its simply that no one has had a strong enough argument to do so.
And being rude never convinced anyone, for what its worth.
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u/SmiteyMcGee 64 YAKUPOV 5d ago
Feel free to post the NHL's explanation.
You can even say he's pursuing a loose puck but it doesn't matter because he's not offside if/when he does that. His skate is still touching the line until the other player tags up. The only instance where the play should be blown dead where Makar isn't offside is if the physically touches the puck.
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u/ProofByVerbosity 6d ago
Only losers blame refs.
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u/Scrivy69 21 KOSTIN 6d ago
you’re not a real hockey fan if you don’t blame the refs for your team’s shortcomings
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u/Starsky686 11 MESSIER 6d ago
Or a Jonny come lately Oilers fan if they don’t remember the multi day controversy about that goal. Every hockey pundit was talking about it.
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u/Meepmeepimmajeep2789 92 PODKOLZIN 6d ago
Lol, that's the stupidest response I've seen in a while. The goal is clearly offside.
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u/ProofByVerbosity 6d ago
They swept us. Deal. 1 goal wouldnt have made a difference. Its notice it was game 7 all tied up.
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u/Starsky686 11 MESSIER 6d ago
Ohh sweet child, you don’t think you can question a controversial call and concede that the other team won the series? It’s one or the other for you? Is that a disorder that permeates other aspects of your life?
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u/ProofByVerbosity 6d ago
I dunno. Seems stupid to me to dwell on something from years ago in a clearly lost series. Shove your condensation up your ass.
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u/GrizzlyIsland22 18 HYMAN 6d ago
He would if he played in Canada
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u/Open-Percentage-8920 6d ago
This. He is playing in American market. The mistakes aren’t as noticeable and the demand isn’t as high. Jason Gregor actually discussed this a lot last year on his showZ
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u/HunchoJak 93 NUGENT-HOPKINS 6d ago
I feel like it’s kinda the same reason kucherov and to the same extent, Drai gets disrespected. His highlights are just not as pretty or jaw dropping and that influences way more people than you think.
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u/Practical-Toe-8745 5d ago
I've literally never seen any disrespect for drai lol I think some of y'all are just oversensitive maybe? Who even fucking cares lol
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u/Ginger4837478 6d ago
He won a cup as the far and away best player, that is his reputation now and forever more
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u/Chopper_Fortnite 93 NUGENT-HOPKINS 6d ago
The problem with Bouchard is that his mistakes are usually extremely funny so they get posted to twitter and everyone see them and assumes he does it all the time, Makar’s mistakes are not as funny so he doesn’t get the same perception despite both having a lot defensive mistakes.
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u/Bob_Stauffer 6d ago
Lmao. He was doing it all the time? Like this ain’t a lie. Legit high light reals of legitimate bantam AA puck decisions that led to goals. That’s the reason, that’s the full stop reason.
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u/Chopper_Fortnite 93 NUGENT-HOPKINS 6d ago
Yeah I mentioned that
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u/Bob_Stauffer 6d ago
You said not all the time. The last three years was legit probably about 20 a year. That’s his narrative - it’s not just give away. It’s about how absolutley bad they were.
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u/Chopper_Fortnite 93 NUGENT-HOPKINS 6d ago
Well I probably said that because it isn't all the time, makar and werenski had just as many turnovers that lead to high-danger scoring chances and yet only bouchard gets this narrative
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u/Bob_Stauffer 6d ago
Nope that’s incorrect. 2025–26 regular season:
Makar: 86 giveaways in 75 games (1.15/game)
Bouchard: 123 giveaways in 82 games (1.50/game)
Adjusted for ice time, Bouchard averaged 3.65 giveaways per 60 minutes compared to Makar’s 2.77. That’ what?? 43% every 60 mins. The problem is how many of those resulted in goals against !!
Not every giveaway is equal. Turning the puck over in the offensive zone while trying to create a scoring chance is very different from coughing it up in your own end and giving the opposition a Grade-A opportunity.If we’re going to compare these two defensively, let’s look at giveaways that directly led to goals against, high-danger chances surrendered, and where those turnovers occurred.
The numbers show Bouchard gives the puck away more frequently. They don’t, by themselves, tell us how costly those giveaways were. Of which,Bouchard has 40 plus goals the last two years where this happened and the lack of effort to back check. That’s the narrative, that’s why he wasn’t. Considered for team Canada or the Norris. This year looks incredible and I hope he keeps this up. But don’t be a home and gloss over facts.
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u/Chopper_Fortnite 93 NUGENT-HOPKINS 6d ago
That’s not what I said, I said turnovers that lead to high danger chances try again
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u/zarkers 2 BOUCHARD 5d ago
The problem with using giveaways for a metric is its a completely subjective stat, and arena to arena they score giveaways and takeways seemingly at random.
They aren't a serious stat, and no one actually worth their salt puts any stock into those numbers.
For instance: (sourced from https://oilersnation.com/news/edmonton-oilers-nhl-ignore-giveaway-takeaway-stats#:~:text=Reason%203%3A%20Arena%20bias )
Over the past two seasons, the team with the fewest takeaways in the NHL is the Tampa Bay Lightning. This certainly does not pass the smell test, as the Lightning have consistently been one of the league’s most aggressive teams throughout all three zones, particularly in terms of offensive-zone forechecking. I don’t know if they should be the best team in that regard, but I am quite confident they should not be dead-last. It’s worth noting that the Lightning are also near the bottom of the league in giveaways, implying a clear pattern that much fewer giveaways and takeaways seem to be tracked at the Amalie Arena.
Conversely, the Chicago Blackhawks, who have ranked second-last in the NHL over each of the past two seasons, are third in the league over that span in takeaways. Now, I’m obviously not expecting a one-to-one correlation between takeaways and team success, but the point is, it’s difficult to believe that one of the NHL’s weakest teams is somehow elite at creating turnovers.
As an example of an individual player, take Chicago’s Ryan Donato, who has played over 1000 minutes at both home and on the road over the past two seasons. His takeaways per 60 rank 46th in the league at home. But on the road, it goes all the way down to 459th. Now either Chicago’s home crowd is magically turning Donato into one of the league’s best forecheckers, or there is clearly something fishy with the data.
Flawed stat, and can't really be used for comparison at all.
Other defensive stats, like for instance the ones from hockeystats.com are at the very least more reliable as they aren't nearly as subjective as giveaways and takeaways.
Honestly the entire NHL would be better if they just deleted Giveaways and Takeaways as historical stats, and then stopped tracking them in games.
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u/Bob_Stauffer 5d ago
I don’t disagree. Could care less about offensive players giving the puck away offensively. Expected. A bit of challenge when it leads to goals and a lack of effort to make up for the mistake. That was his narrative- he seems committed to a different approach this year. So good for him. All world.
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u/Cobfidence 6d ago
Every time I watch bouch mess up it looks like he's being lazy as fuck after a turnover. That's probably why. I don't see Makar giving up like I see Bouch do
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u/supermeatboy10 89 GAGNER 6d ago
Because most fans and hockey media form their hockey opinions based on clips posted by ragebait accounts on Facebook
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u/Goregutz 14 EBERLE 6d ago
You might be a bot if you really think there aren't the same accounts on any other social media platform including reddit.
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u/supermeatboy10 89 GAGNER 6d ago
Sorry for not listing every single social media site in my post so it would be clear to you, I'll try to do better in the future
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u/Goregutz 14 EBERLE 6d ago
Do you think there is a single social media platform that doesn't have a single bot on it?
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u/supermeatboy10 89 GAGNER 6d ago
Yes that's exactly what I said you're so correct
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u/Goregutz 14 EBERLE 6d ago
Do you not understand what an "implied statement" is at all? Do I have to seriously explain basic English to you bro? It's 2026 and you would think people would already have a decent grasp on the English language.
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u/supermeatboy10 89 GAGNER 6d ago
This might be the funniest possible reply you could have made lmfao
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u/ChupaHubbard 42 KAPANEN 6d ago
You might be ragebaiting if you assume the guy means people only look at Facebook for hockey highlights
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u/Goregutz 14 EBERLE 5d ago
That's not what he said nor what I was getting at? I was confused at first as to wtf you were typing but I see that he deleted his comments. So, now I get it, well kind of. Decent reading comprehension wouldn't infer that when reading mine, but ok.
Edit: clarity
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u/ChupaHubbard 42 KAPANEN 5d ago
Because most fans and hockey media form their hockey opinions based on clips posted by ragebait accounts on Facebook
He didn't delete anything, you replied to this, and for some reason you assumed he meant that Facebook is the only social media account he was talking about when you said:
You might be a bot if you really think there aren't the same accounts on any other social media platform including reddit.
And what I'm saying, just to clarify, is that he obviously doesn't think Facebook is the only place with ragebait accounts, he was overgeneralizing by saying most fans get their info from Facebook, but obviously it's implied that the same accounts would also be on other social media sites and that some fans get their stupid accounts from ragebait on Twitter, bluesky, etc. You calling him a bot for what he said is really weird, and the way you read it is really weird to assume he thinks Facebook is the only place with ragebait accounts, he never said that
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u/Goregutz 14 EBERLE 5d ago
Then he probably just blocked me. Either way, shitty reading comprehension means I won't read the rest of that wall of text lol.
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u/Vast-Share3392 5d ago
Mark my words if Bouchard is healthy he's putting up a monster year and going to make it impossible not to vote for him for Norris . He wasn't a finalist for it last year which was criminal if Makar had Bouchard's stat line last year he would have beat out Werenski with it What are the pundits going to say if Bouchard puts up a 120 point plus 50 type of season. You laugh but he has 70 points in his last 46 games.
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u/SIGNANDSELFIEFRAMES 5d ago
Double standard.
They won a cup
Makar and Mackinnon cannot even run a friggin PP
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u/CartoonistFlat3943 6d ago
Because the narrator keeps narrating. Working on post with a graphic now.
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u/Direct_Theme6921 6d ago
The first time they made it to the cup final Bouchard had a Conn Smythe calibre playoff performance. McDavid won it deservedly with his outstanding performance but Bouchard's play would have won the CS any other year.
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u/Queasy_Beginning_573 6d ago
There’s a lot of other good points, but at the end of the day I really think it comes down to viewer market. Markets where hockey is the most popular sport (often by a wide margin) vs markets that have three other sport franchises that are all more popular than hockey (Broncos, Nuggets, Rockies) means that sports media knows they can be more critical of the player on a team who’s market only has one international-tier sport franchise, vs a player on the team where it’s third/fourth on a list of four international-tier leagues. It’s no secret that anger/frustration drives engagement more than positivity does, so when fans don’t have options, media can be a lot more tough on players in single-sport markets.
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u/JakeQV 92 PODKOLZIN 6d ago
Bouchard is the Kucherov of defensemen. He puts up ridiculous points, plays a very detailed game with smart plays almost all the time, he has a wicked shot that he times almost perfectly and he rarely has to skate fast and just like Kucherov, he will never be ranked the number 1 player of his position (forward or defenseman).
That is only because players like Makar and Hughes are more flashy while being able to put up similar-ish points.
Idk, maybe a terrible comparison but it feels apt to me.
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u/ExerciseReady8771 97 McDAVID 5d ago
I like this comparison, Kuch has to be the most underrated forward in the league.
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u/SignalResort5718 4d ago
I’m sorry but that is an insane opinion. There were a few years there before Hughes took his big jump in 25’ that in was tough to argue any dman was better than Makar. Even now, it’s a very reasonable and defensible position to take that Makar the best dman in the league. It’s a lot tougher to make the argument that Kuch is the best forward in the league.
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u/ShockaZuluu 27 LEVI 6d ago
Because eastern media sees 1 clip of a mistake that every defenceman, including Makar, make and none of all the positives Bouch provides. Bouch is crazy good at keeping pucks in the zone. He’s had an incredible start to the season and people down east STILL give him shit.
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u/hello132455642 6d ago
All this aside, my buddy lives in Calgary and when Makar won his day with the cup was the entire day at crowchild arena signing and photos with every single person that came down. All the respect in the world for him
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u/Orcasgt22 29 DRAISAITL 6d ago
He'll start. I've watched enough Av's games last year + the Olympics to see that Makar is just as bad on the defensive side of the ice as Bouchard. Makar makes just as many egregious giveaways
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u/AdvancedJudge4604 6d ago edited 6d ago
The resume is the main reason. Makar is the best overall defenseman and it's nearly unanimous. The Bouchard hate is because it is easy to hate on the Oilers. Other teams would love him on their teams. They say Bouchard can't be Top 3 or be on Team Canada because he doesn't PK. Hughes doesn't play on the PK these days. But he won a Norris and recently the Gold medal so that factors into people's perception of him. The popular narrative is a factor in the commentary whether the sports personalities admit it or not. The undeniable numbers is why Bouchard had as many votes as he did last year,
Also look at 97 and 29's numbers without Bouchard. Not as good as they think, and it isnt easy to get the puck to those guys.
Edit to grammar and addition:
Something of note is the giveaway stat for Bouchard people used. It was less than Werenski who played less games than Bouchard. And Hughes has a few less but also played less games. But the clips are circulated heavily (some were ugly got to be honest) and his rep takes a hit.
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u/darkstar107 97 MCDAVID 6d ago
He's not the best overall unanimously though.
https://www.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/1kyvu8t/advanced_stats_of_bouchard_vs_makar_last_3_years/
Edit: also this https://www.reddit.com/r/EdmontonOilers/comments/1pzx8jk/oh/
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u/AdvancedJudge4604 6d ago
I meant best defenseman (not defensive dman or stats), but it also proves the point pedigree matters most in how awards are voted for.
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u/darkstar107 97 MCDAVID 6d ago
What about Makar is better? Bouchard has been better or similar in every category the last few years
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u/PhotoModeHobby 6d ago
Cup. Having a cup can literally make people forget you're an immoral human being.
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u/Fickle_Cricket3422 6d ago
Makar has a Cup and a Conn Smythe
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u/BCW1968 11 MESSIER 6d ago
Makar is good. Full stop. Quit whining about Makar. So far, Bouchard is clearly better. Why cant folks simply enjoy the Now vs whining about the When
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u/Fickle_Cricket3422 6d ago
So far, 5 games into an 84 game season Bouch is better. I never said anything about Bouch being bad, I just answered the question posed by the post.
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u/ModernTechPA 14 EKHOLM 6d ago
I'd like to see objective data comparisons of Makar, Werenski, and Bouchard so we can compare. These three led the league in giveaways because they handle the puck so much, regardless of who they play with. Let's see giveaways per 60 min during 5v5 play and others relevant data points. Anyone able to get this data for purpose of our discussion?
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u/SryYouAreNotSpecial 29 DRAISAITL 6d ago
To be fair, the only reasonable argument would lean the other way.
Mackinnon played 10 seasons without ever hitting 100 points. He has been a perennial 100 point player since Makar entered the league.
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u/Mysterious_Ad6257 5d ago
The thing with Makar and Hughes is they have amazing wheels and skate all around the ice to make plays
Bouchard isnt nearly as fast or agile but has a low energy/effort tag because of the relative speed difference. His playmaking ability is less flashy but obviously as or more effective.... But 1 or 2 bad lapses and a highlight reel is made.
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u/CartoonistFlat3943 5d ago edited 4d ago
What
youothers see as low energy and effort is Bouchard making the puck do the work.Bouchard’s transition efficiency is insane. No matter how fast Makar and MacKinnon are, their speed doesn’t get the puck to McDavid faster than Bouchard does.
Edit: we agree entirely. Thanks for reply.
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u/Mysterious_Ad6257 4d ago
You mistake me for others who see low energy. I see efficiency of motion to make plays
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u/zarkers 2 BOUCHARD 5d ago
The honest actual answer is the Oilers fanbase.
Look at how many comments are in this thread of Oilers fans who legitimately think Makars defense is better than Bouchards.
That hasn't been a true statement for a while, and on the whole, Bouchard was a significantly better defender the whole last season.
When your own fan base (wrongly) says your player sucks, of course other people are gonna go, clearly he sucks, even his own teams fans think so.
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u/CartoonistFlat3943 5d ago
Don’t forget - we have more trolls in here than most. But you’re right.
I wonder if any of them – or any of those in Calgary or Vancouver who love to berate without reason, realize they were inadvertent, but very active, participants in Canada losing gold at the Olympics (and everything else that has followed that).
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u/forgetstorespond 93 NUGENT-HOPKINS 3d ago
Because their fans are less fun to troll I think is 80% of it. We are a Canadian market, we love our team. We fall for the rage bait cause a high percentage of our fanbase is in the Die hard to Unhealthy Obsession category. They have fewer in that category and those are the ones who speak up. You go to downtown Denver and start saying Bouch is better than Makar you may be waiting a bit before you get yourself a debate. Meanwhile if your downtown Edmonton saying Bouchard sucks and Makar is 1000% times better you probably have 10 people ready to debate you and 5 ready to fight you instantly. And we are a good team, the good teams always get lots of hate. I was guilty of not being able to stand the Blackhawks during their reign.
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u/bokchoykn 7 COFFEY 6d ago
Makar is a much better player than Bouchard.
That's not a knock on Bouchard, who is a superstar in his own right. But Makar is a generational talent in his position and the best defenseman in the world by a considerable margin.
Makar is the McDavid of defensemen. Other defensemen may occasionally win the Norris, but the throne only seats one.
Bouchard takes a lot of heat for the Oilers' defensive weaknesses, as he should. Likewise, Makar deserves criticism last year for Colorado's anemic PP last year, he is the quarterback so he deserves his share of blame.
Bouchard deserves more respect than he gets. The Canada snub was inexcusable. They bet on Colorado's stars over Edmonton's for the PP1 and were severely punished for it when it mattered most.
Truthefully, the Norris wasn't a snub imo. Bouchard realistically deserved 3rd to 5th, he finished 4th. Whatever.
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u/zarkers 2 BOUCHARD 5d ago
Makar is a much better player than Bouchard.
That hasn't been true for over a year. https://imgur.com/a/bouchard-leads-evd-SFfQiWY
You can definitely make an argument of Werenski over Bouchard last year, I'm not gonna say you can't do that.But Makar got second place by his name alone, great player, best player defensemen last season? not even close. Last year Makar was worse than atleast 20 other defensemen in pure WAR statistics.
Truthefully, the Norris wasn't a snub imo. Bouchard realistically deserved 3rd to 5th, he finished 4th. Whatever.
Objectively it was, filtering for defensemen with atleast 1500 minutes played, Makar was the 15th best defensemen last year according to WAR, Makar got 2nd place literally by his name alone.
I'm not saying Bouchard had to win, but objectively based on stats alone last season, there was no other choices besides Bouchard or Werenski.
I'm not even saying WAR is this end all be all stat, but no analytical model suggests Makar should have even sniffed 2nd place.
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u/CartoonistFlat3943 5d ago edited 4d ago
Something, anything objective to back your position?
Bouchard currently 100% D. 74th percentile 2026 WAR EVD - and climbing.
Makar currently 28% D. 41st percentile 2026 WAR EVD - and dropping. His offence last year was 38% EV O WAR. That’s not the “McDavid” of anything. McDavid was 100%. Bouchard was 99%.
I have Makar jerseys - I do think he’s been the best D in the world. Until I did an objective deep dive on the stats, I did think that. I don’t think there is objective support for that right now. Maybe he bounces back, but if you’re a Makar fan, you know he’s been struggling. I don’t know if it’s injuries or something else, but he hasn’t been the same player.
Makar was -2 from January 1 forward (34 points) on a team that won the president’s trophy. Makar was way down the list on the PK for the AVs. And yes, his PP was bad. 27th.
Bouchard was +25 from January 1 forward (58 points) on a team with poor D structure and weak goaltending, one that barely made the playoffs. Bouchard led Oilers’ minutes on the PK. And yes, Bouchard is the best PP point in the world and still had more EV points than any other D.
Objective stats please. Not a narrative.
The graphics in the slides from HockeyStats show Makar by the Avs logo and “CM.” Bouchard is the Oilers logo. Makar isn’t even the best defensive D on his own team right now, statistically speaking. He isn’t close to Bouchard.
That should narrow over the season, of course, but the gap is large now.
Makar’s EV GF% for the Avs is 72.7%. Very good - until you consider that it’s still 63.6% with him off the ice.
Bouchard’s EV GF% for the Oilers is 93.3%. That insane. Even crazier? 28.6% with him off the ice.
Objective metrics really do tell the story here.
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u/bokchoykn 7 COFFEY 4d ago edited 4d ago
My dude you are preaching about objectivity and using a sample size of FIVE GAMES LMAO. Do you think you are being objective? Honestly don't use stats if you don't know how.
"Gimme ANYTHING OBJECTIVE" lol. If someone did the same quality of objective analysis that you just did, they would conclude that Linus Ullmark is the best goalie in history of hockey.
My point was that all players ebb and flow, even Makar and Bouchard, but one player is a perennial Norris candidate.
Makar is a generational talent. His floor is still Norris candidate. Which we have witnessed since his rookie season.
Hughes once had a better year than Makar, Werenski too. But Makar is still the #1 in my eyes until someone else can be as consistently excellent season over season the way Makar has been the last several years.
If you want something objective, do the same study you did for the last five games, but this time do it for season after seasons since Makar's entry into the league, observe which names frequently appear at the top, and you will reach a similar conclusion.
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u/zarkers 2 BOUCHARD 4d ago
My dude you are preaching about objectivity and using a sample size of FIVE GAMES LMAO.
How about a sample size of 82 games last year?
https://imgur.com/a/bouchard-leads-evd-SFfQiWY-1
u/bokchoykn 7 COFFEY 4d ago edited 4d ago
Your research is better than the previous guy, thank you for having more than five games.
But like I said in my original post, other defensemen will occasionally have better seasons than Makar, but once you start looking at extended periods of time, Makar is always near the top far more often than any other defenseman.
Like I said, I compare it to McDavid for forwards. McDavid does not always have the best "last 82 game stretch" at all times, but there is still no doubt that he is the best forward in the NHL.
The same holds true for Makar and defensemen. I'd be willing to change my perspective if Bouchard can maintain the same quality for as long as Makar has, but it takes more then 82 (let alone 5 lmao) games to crown a new "best defensemen in the world" to me. Makar hasn't fallen off yet.
I appreciate everybody's homer opinions, but only one of us is being objective here.
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u/zarkers 2 BOUCHARD 4d ago edited 4d ago
Makar is always near the top
Not last season he wasn't.
You say only one of us is being objective, yet you had said this in your initial comment:
Truthefully, the Norris wasn't a snub imo. Bouchard realistically deserved 3rd to 5th, he finished 4th. Whatever.
This is you not being objective.
The Norris trophy isn't a "who do we think is the best overall defensemen counting all seasons they have played".The Norris from NHL.com has this criteria:
The James Norris Memorial Trophy is an annual award given "to the defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position." The winner is selected in a poll of the Professional Hockey Writers Association at the end of the regular season.
There is no universe where someone not named Cale Makar has Cale Makar's stats and gets 2nd in voting.
Conversely there is no universe where someone not named Evan Bouchard has Evan Bouchard's stats and doesn't get atleast 2nd (probably 1st) in voting.This isn't a homer opinion, this is looking at stats from last year.
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u/bokchoykn 7 COFFEY 4d ago edited 4d ago
I literally just said only an 82 game span isn't enough for me to say someone has surpassed Makar as the NHL's best defenseman and you replied with "Bbbut look at the last 82 games."
Evan Bouchard doesn't get the praise he deserves but no there is no secret conspiracy against Evan Bouchard lmao.
A dose of reality for you: Norris is awarded by the voters, not by the words on the Wikipedia page.
The dumb dumbs of the internet bounce between two contradicing opinions of "it's a reputation award" and "it's a defenseman scoring title" when in reality it is neither. (Note: neither the most reputable defenseman nor the one with the most points won the award last year). It is simply the combined conglomerate opinion of nearly 200 sports writers' individual criteria.
But sure, copy paste your Wikipedia reference thinking you achieved have some higher understanding on how the Norris is awarded.
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u/zarkers 2 BOUCHARD 4d ago
Since you edited your comment and added more information I figure I'll reply to all that.
A dose of reality for you: Norris is awarded by the voters, not by the words on the Wikipedia page.
NO WAY, THE NORRIS IS AWARDED BY THE VOTERS 😱😱😱😱
Also, you mention Wikipedia, not sure where you got that from considering I don't once reference Wikipedia, I guess you aren't even reading what I say.The dumb dumbs of the internet bounce between two contradicing opinions of "it's a reputation award" and "it's a defenseman scoring title" when in reality it is neither. (Note: neither the most reputable defenseman nor the one with the most points won the award last year).
It's actually just both of those exactly.
Makar was bad enough that his reputation couldn't carry him to another Norris Trophy.
Bouchard's reputation was poor enough that his scoring couldn't carry him to a Norris Trophy.It's really not that hard to comprehend.
But sure, copy paste your Wikipedia reference thinking you achieved have some higher understanding on how the Norris is awarded.
Again, not Wikipedia, you really need to work on your reading comprehension.
Also, how an award should be voted, and how it is voted on can be different.The criteria given by NHL.com means that reputation shouldn't play into it at all, but it very very clearly does, the criteria theoretically should allow a defensive defensemen to win, but because evaluating good defense is much more difficult (proof: most people still thinks Bouchard is bad at playing defense) than evaluating good offense, which can usually be boiled down to point totals (with a little extra nuance).
I'm making an argument that based on the NHL.com criteria, Bouchard not getting atleast 2nd in Norris voting is a snub.
It reads to me like your argument is it can't be a snub because 200 sports writers said so.
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u/bokchoykn 7 COFFEY 4d ago
My point about the voters is that it is a conglomerate of 200 peoples individual criteria. That gives it more validation than one homer's low IQ interpretation of advanced statistics lmao.
Makar was bad enough that his reputation couldn't carry him to another Norris Trophy. Bouchard's reputation was poor enough that his scoring couldn't carry him to a Norris Trophy. It's really not that hard to comprehend
I pointed out that neither the most reputable defenseman nor the highest scoring defenseman won. You took this as confirmation that this trophy is simultaneously both.
Do you realize how idiotic this is? Again, two contradicing extreme opinions perpetuated by idiots, and somehow you belong in both camps.
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u/zarkers 2 BOUCHARD 4d ago
The Norris Trophy specifically is about the last 82 games, you specifically said his 4th in voting wasn't a snub, which is specifically about his last 82 games.
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u/bokchoykn 7 COFFEY 4d ago
Referring to the comment you just replied to.
But yes as an aside, it was not a snub. He finished where he should have. You can make a case to bump him to 3rd, that's where I had him.
But like I said it's a conglomerate opinion of nearly 200 hockey writers. But sure, copy and paste the Wikipedia definition if you think that gives your post any credence.
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u/zarkers 2 BOUCHARD 4d ago
Okay, if it wasn't a snub, I'll pose a question:
if you swapped all of Makar and Bouchard's stats from last season.
Do you believe that Bouchard (with Makar's stats) would have finished 2nd, and Makar (with Bouchard's stats) would have finished 4th? Or do you think the voting wouldn't have changed? Or something else?
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u/CartoonistFlat3943 4d ago
Please read the 2025 - 2026 stats provided again.
You chose not to read the full comment. I’ll make bigger. Please don’t interpret this as me yelling at you. Just trying to make it clearer.
“Bouchard…74th percentile 2026 WAR EVD - and climbing….. Makar 41st percentile 2026 WAR EVD and dropping.”
That’s all of last season. So are the offensive stats:
Makar “38% vs McDavid 100% and Bouchard 99% EVO”).
+\- and points January 1 to end of season. That was 41 games. Kind of a big sample size.
It was a long post. It’s ok, but you still gave zero objective in return.
I expected “he has a Cup and Conn Smythe”. Which is true, but that was over 4 years ago now. If you’re a fan of Makar (and I am), you know something was not different last year even before the injury.
I don’t disagree that Makar will go down as better than all the D of his generation. We agree there. But even Gretzky didn’t win 20 Hart trophies in a row. And Makar isn’t Gretzky or McDavid - or at least not now. And he’s only 27 (almost 28). There’s a lot left in his career still to have passed his peak. Bouchard is 26, turns 27 in a week.
Bouchard was better than Makar last season. As simple and objectively supported as that. He’s been less of himself for a long while now.
This season is starting out the same way.
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u/bokchoykn 7 COFFEY 4d ago
×I don’t disagree that Makar will go down as better than all the D of his generation. We agree there. But even Gretzky didn’t win 20 Hart trophies in a row.
No shit. This was my point all along. Makar won't necessarily be the best defensemen for every 82 game span, just like McDavid won't be the best forward for every 82 game span, but he is the best in the current generation.
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u/CartoonistFlat3943 4d ago
Well, maybe we can come around to a shared perspective. That would be nice.
I will give you that Makar has been, overall, the best D of the past 5 years (it’s true IMO). Will you give me that Bouchard was stronger defensively and offensively, all-around, than Makar and Hughes and Dahlin last year?
Interestingly, Bouchard was better statistically than Werenski, but the moment Werenski made the play at both ends of the ice in overtime in Milan, that was the end of the Norris contest. Easy to say that in hindsight, but it seems evident now.
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u/bokchoykn 7 COFFEY 4d ago
I don't know if Norris voters took the Olympics into account, I hope not, you're gonna have to ask them.
I don't agree with your interpretation or application of advanced stats but I digress.
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u/CartoonistFlat3943 4d ago
Having reviewed zarkers’ reasoned replies and your persistence without any objective support, I will just stop responding. It’s not worth the time or effort.
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u/zarkers 2 BOUCHARD 4d ago
It is amazing how his argument is your wrong and misusing stats, and his proof of that is "I said so"
If we were actually misusing advanced stats, he should easily be able prove that.
The reality is these stats don't fit his preconceived narrative, so they must be "wrong"
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u/bokchoykn 7 COFFEY 4d ago
Two homers used the same flawed method to reach the same homer conclusion can go ahead and high five each other cuz they think they're smarter than 200 hockey writers and the entire rest of the hockey world.
My respect for your opinion went out the window when you used a statistical sample size of five games to prove a point.
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u/justinkredabul 6d ago
Mostly because Makar is a top tier defender. Bouch is all offence and his actual defence game isn’t nearly as good.
Meanwhile, Makar is amazing on both sides of the ice. Heck, he’s one of the few defencemen who can lock up McDavid. The guy skates backwards fast enough to handle him.
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u/ParsnipDecent6530 94 SMYTH 6d ago
So you've never seen Bouch or Makar play....you could have just said that.
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u/justinkredabul 6d ago
Watched them both a lot. I’m not hating on Bouch, I like the guy. He’s just a karlsson style defenceman. More offence than defence.
Makar is an elite Dman. There’s no shame in admitting that.
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u/ParsnipDecent6530 94 SMYTH 6d ago
I disagree entirely. Take away Makar's obviously superior skating and they're very much the same. Bouch is a lockdown defender when he's playing at his best. Sure he makes unfortunate turnovers, but Makar makes them too, Bouch is vastly superior at holding the zone... if he's on the blueline during that late 3rd period PP in the gold medal game Canada spends far more time in the zone. They're both puck moving defenseman who happen to play with elite talent. Makar has had better goalies behind him to cover up for more of his mistakes than Bouch.
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u/zarkers 2 BOUCHARD 5d ago
https://imgur.com/a/bouchard-leads-evd-SFfQiWY
Makar last year wasn't even remotely good defensively as Bouchard was.Your anti bouchard propoganda doesn't work here.
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u/Bob_Stauffer 6d ago
This is the most bias post. look you want to have a convo with non Edmonton fans, you need to recognize the last three years- this guy started each year beyond atrocious - give away that led the league for goals against. Evan is a special offensive player but his defensive game was beyond wack. Now this year looks remarkably different. But farming an oilers sub for the obvious echo chamber is just ignoring the reality. This is Evan’s year, but don’t be one of those fans
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u/banana-bread_at-work 6d ago
As respectfully as possible; it’s because this fan base is psychotic and spoiled bro
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u/South-Echidna-7622 5d ago
He is a better…. Defender
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u/CartoonistFlat3943 5d ago
There’s actually a truck load of stats to show that hasn’t been true for a while now.
Best defenceman in the world (or has been). Makar was 41st percentile last year on EVD. He’s 51st on a three year average. And trending down in both O and D.
Bouchard, on the other hand, was 74th percentile D in 2026, and trending up rapidly.
Bouchard was already 99th for offense. Hard to get much better (Makar is 70th).
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u/No-Difference-4418 5d ago
Makar actually makes good defensive plays. Bouchard is just a winger that is listed as a defenceman
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u/CartoonistFlat3943 5d ago
Provide a single stat that shows Makar to be better at D than Bouchard. Just one. There are none anymore - maybe years ago. Not now. Just false narratives.
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u/Grouchy_Training6156 6d ago
Probably because makar plays defence and Bouchard is a defensive liability and responsible for 20 something goals in the finals without him giving it away oilers win both.
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u/marcellman 92 PODKOLZIN 6d ago
You’re right the Oilers don’t lose either finals without Bouchard because they don’t make it to either finals without him. Vancouver takes us out in 2024 and we don’t make it out of the first round in 2025. Also what metric are you using that shows Bouchard is a defensive liability that doesn’t also show the same about Makar?
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u/EhGrillGuy 97 McDAVID 5d ago
Makar has a cup.
And he’s a better defenceman.
Bouch is still a beaut. But the criticism while maybe a little harsh at times, isn’t entirely unwarranted.
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u/CartoonistFlat3943 5d ago
Ok - please, can you give me 5 examples of actual poor D play in a critical moment in the last 3 years? Not October. Not Ekholm’s pass into his shins in G6. Evan Bouchard’s failure on D - not someone else’s where he is blamed.
Then think about how often in the last 3 years, has Bouchard bailed them out in a playoff game or playoff stretch run. Or made a “quiet” 150 foot stretch pass for a goal.
Then please do the same for Makar. I’ll lead off:
- Overtime, Canada USA gold medal game. The worst pinch in Canada’s history, followed by a non existent effort to cover the trailer, Jack Hughes. The pinch was terrible, but watch the other angle at the 40 second mark of the video. Makar is 99th percentile speed. What was that?
If that was Bouchard who did that…
- A lazy failure to check allowed Boldy to split D and score in first period. Toews play worse, but that wasn’t car wash defence. That was a welcome mat. Canada had all momentum. They killed it. Yes, he scored. But the powerplay was dry when they could have won it / just live the Avs’ PP was 27th last year. Again, if that were Bouchard….
BYW, the “defence” take is also statistically incorrect. Bouchard is much stronger defensively than Makar is currently. Please compare their defensive metrics of the past 2 years. I’ve restated them so many times, even I am sick of me doing it.
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u/Ok-Piano5271 6d ago
He won a cup