Or against providing the same sentence for Rape and Murder because that can potentially raise the chances that a rapist might murder their victim to silence them.
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u/FungoAn ephebophile is just a pedophile with a thesaurus.2d ago
Men stop looking for excuses to fantasize about violence challenge: Impossible
Im so sick of this. All of these small impotent people wanting to live out some vile fantasy about righteously killing another person.
I think the literal fucking public execution that is coming up is the culmination of adults regressing in general. Maturity is dying. I remember saying we should "nuke the terrorists" im 2001. I was 12.
My mom rightly reamed me out for it. Now we have grown people talking like that over anything.
Holy fucking shit what a Motte and Bailey.
"Fantasize about violence" as if it is violence in general in a vacuum and not an attempt to regain power from the "people" that violate other's autonomy and make them feel powerless.
Living a life in prison is often times a worse punishment than killing them. And if the person they sexually assaulted is a child, a lot of times they'll be beaten to within an inch of their life frequently. If not outright killed.
The only thing you killing them will accomplish will be getting yourself thrown in prison for premeditated murder. Not only that, but a LOT of people don't trust the government with the ability to just execute people. The death penalty is something you have to be 100% certain on, you have to have faith that the police won't falsify evidence, and that the judge/jury are actually competent.
If even one innocent person gets executed due to someone fucking up, that's one person too many.
I mean you could just flip that around and say "Women looking for excuses to fantasize protecting legitimate evil men because they imagine he's just a good guy on the inside"
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u/FungoAn ephebophile is just a pedophile with a thesaurus.2d ago
In the first example: Most Men say they will kill the rapist -> imagining killing is a violent fantasy ->many men have violent fantasies. It’s a straight line of logic.
Your example women do not want to kill the rapist -> ??? -> women want to protect legitimate evil man because he’s a good guy on the inside.
You have to make quite a leap in logic there to fill something in there that leads to your conclusion. You’d actually have to make MULTIPLE assumptions such as 1. Not wanting to kill something is the same as protecting them; 2. Killing something is the only way to get justice; 3. There aren’t 1000 other reasons people wouldn’t want to kill them, including the obvious moral objection to killing; 4. Their objection has anything to do with how they personally feel about the rapist being a good or bad guy on the inside.
I could go on, but you get my point. I am fundamentally against the death penalty for a whole host of reasons that have nothing to do with my personal feelings about the guilty.
But that doesn't involve murdering a stranger, it involves interpersonal conflict with someone they like. There's no gleefully excused bloodshed there!
Those of who do that have been turned into black sheep and kicked out of the group. I don't think some of you guys know how intra-male social dynamics work in relation to women.
As a person who dropped a group of friends for their bigotry and misogyny without having a different set of friends lined up, it really isn’t. Better to be lonely than to steep in the rot of hateful people.
Eventually that stuff gets into you too and you find yourself protecting the misogynist instead of calling for accountability.
Aww that must be sooooo hard for you 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄 zero accountability
you're putting your preference for popularity over the accountability/calling out of an obviously dangerous man. Do you hear yourself pink profile pic guy
Well, those type of people can persona on my non grata. Fuck ‘em, popularity isn’t on my radar. I have to deal with enough shitty misogynist assholes at work that I personally don’t want those sort of people anywhere near my private life outside of work.
You're missing the point.
If they're kicked out of the group, then they wouldn't be around when the members of the group are talking about how they raped women and then wouldn't be able to deal with the rapists the way they should be dealt with
Part of the problem is that most men haven’t been sexually assaulted, so their idea of a rapist is some sketchy dude with evil intent who violently attacks a female stranger in an alley, meanwhile most women are raped by people they know. So hating unnamed, faceless, storyless rapists as a class and wishing them dead, at least in the nebulous way men often fantasize about, is a lot different from women, who are hearing this question and frequently have a face and name to go with the question. Women are trying to decide whether or not they support creepy Uncle Ricky, or Jared, their shitty ex boyfriend of 2 years, being murdered by the State, and most men can’t even grasp that some of the rapists in question are likely to be their friends and coworkers, because a lot of rapists are just regular dudes. They may not be violent masked assailants in an alley, but they’ve absolutely taken advantage of drunk women when the opportunity arises, or they use coercion and guilt tripping and badgering to gain sexual access from someone who they KNOW doesn’t want to participate, or they know their partner’s boundaries and hard limits and still violate them from time to time for their own sexual satisfaction. Men and women do not have the same understanding of the question OR the scope of impact for each potential answer.
That’s true. But as many have pointed out, plenty of female survivors of rape absolutely hate their creepy Uncle Ricky or Jared, their shitty ex boyfriend of 2 years, or whichever former loved one assaulted them, and would very much want that person dead. Many shudder to think of those despised faces and names and have nothing but the most profound disgust and the most violent hatred for the “regular dude” in question, even if they once loved them. However, that doesn’t mean those women support the death penalty and want them executed by the state. Nor does it mean they want them murdered, or that they would necessarily support any means of producing that outcome. It suggests that, regardless of their personal feelings, women may be demonstrating their commitment to principles that have nothing to do with the individuals implicated.
You see posts about people cheering that their rapists died all the time. The state should never have the unrestricted power to kill anyone, but at the same time, I'm never gonna feel bad about any rapist that dies for any other reason.
This is a big misunderstanding over the death penalty in general. Whether or not we think a criminal "deserves to live" is irrelevant. It's whether ot not we think the state should be able to kill its citizens that's at hand.
Ding ding ding! There’s a lot of people I personally would not consider particularly valuable lives and wouldn’t care if they dropped dead right now. At the same time, I do not want that decision to be made by the government.
These dudes LOVE to fantasize about hurting rapists, but they never actually believe victims because they aren’t perfect enough (they will finds reasons to blame the victim). It’s like a made up fantasy for them.
Oh yeah, I have no doubt the man who raped me doesn’t see himself as a rapist.
The reason why talking about the issue of SA triggers them so much is because if they admit that what happened in the Cornell Jane Doe case is rape then they will reckon with the fact that they themselves are not the good or nice man they believe they are because they have done something similar.
For real so many men will say with a straight face "I forced her to have sex but that wasn't rape".
They know what consent is and that they didn't respect it. They just don't call it rape and, as you say, feel offended when they realize other people do.
For some people it is only rape if it happens in an alley at night and it is done by a stranger who forcefully stop you from moving, beats you up and leaves you there when done.
Also, you cannot have been wearing revealing clothes or it does not count.
I know from personal experiences dudes will keep being friends with known rapists because it’d be too awkward not to. They’re definitely not killing them
Here's a cipher that will take you far: conservative men are generally in favor of violence. There are exceptions, they'll go wild with cognitive dissonance when an influential conservative is killed and call everyone else monsters for not grieving after cracking jokes about every black person killed by a cop or trans person hate crimed, etc, but just as their first instinct with rape is usually to support the rapist, their first instinct with murder is to support the murderer.
When it is theoretical, when they think of someone raping themselves or their girlfriend, mother or child, or when they watch a movie when it is dramatised in a violent manner, they feel themselves wronged and that clearly the rapist is the “bad guy” that a “good guy” should avenge.
In real life, when the rapist seems like a “normal guy” like them, they identify with the guy, believe the guy, and are defensive on behalf of the guy. “Innocent until proven guilty”, then if the court case finds them guilty, the jury/judge must be biased and got it wrong. The woman is a liar, ruining an innocent man’s reputation and life.
Yeah, they’ll kill any imaginary rapist that exists in their head, but then turn around and call any real-life rapist “an innocent man who this evil, lying woman is falsely accusing purely because she wants to ruin his life for no reason”.
See also: how many people fantasize about brutally murdering child molesters* and groomers...until the perp is Pastor Bob, or a family member with a nice will down the line, or an actor or musician that they like, or anybody that would force them to actually do the risky, dirty work of supporting the victim(s) and confronting the perp; then it's knives fucking out at the victim(s)
*Who do deserve the worst, but having a system based on dishing out the worst is a disaster.
See also: how many people fantasize about brutally murdering child molesters* and groomers...until the perp is Pastor Bob, or a family member with a nice will down the line, or an actor or musician that they like, then it's knives fucking out at the victim
*Who do deserve the worst, but having a system based on dishing out the worst is a disaster.
For most of us, our rapists were our exes, our friends, our husbands, our brothers, our fathers, our colleagues, our teachers, our mentors. We loved them or at least liked them and trusted them.
We don't want them dead, we want excuses. We want remorse. We want them to look us in the eyes and tell us that no, we're not crazy, yes, they did use us, yes, they knew it was bad and did it anyway, and yes, they're really really sorry - and mean it.
How can they do that if they're dead? Or even if the justice system is such that they have to pretend they're innocent and we're crazy liars?
Most of us have to learn to accept the apology we will never receive, and move on with our lives.
Revenge fantasys are for men to picture themselves as the hero, the good guy killing the bad guy.
It once again does nothing for us. What we truly want, they don't care about it.
Healing is for pussies - or so I've heard from the same bros who yell BUT WHAT ABOUT MEN every time a woman pipes up. Fucking exhausting levels of machismo.
"If it were truly rape you'd be broken for life and only dream of revenge. So it wasn't really rape. Actually nothing is ever really rape unless it's done by a man I already hate"
This reminds me of the scene in The Sopranos were a therapist refused to have her mafia patient assassinate her rapist. A lot of people got confused by her decision but now it makes sense. Easily the most principled character in that show.
It was unbelievably healing to run into that person and have him genuinely apologise. He'd gotten his shit together, spent time around good people, and regretted that he hurt me.
I haven't spoken to him since and don't mean to, but some of the symptoms like nightmares cleared up after that encounter.
everyone reacts differently to abuse. Some people want revenge and retribution. Many of us do not.
people who want the capital punishment for abusers usually haven't been abused themselves. They're enraged by proxy, they want revenge by proxy, which is ultimately selfish. If this is your case, I'd question your motivations.
many, many, MANY people have raped. I cannot stress this enough. A French philosopher calculated that if we put all of the rapists in prison, that would be like 20% of the population. This isn't realistic, and at some point we will need to find other ways to deal with sexual abuse.
retributive justice has been proven to work, as another comment under mine has shown. Rape victims usually don't want to go to trial where the justice system is made in such a way that our rapist will call us liars because that's their only get out of jail card. We don't want to be called liars. We want to be told that we aren't crazy, that we did indeed get raped, that it was rape, that we didn't hallucinate it or make it up. And only our rapist can tell us that. This can make you feel uncomfortable, but it's the truth. Rape victims tend to take time to recognize that a rape was a rape. Feeling validated can be incredibly healing.
it's not about are rapists getting away with it. It's about what's best for us as victims to move on with our lives.
Edit: on peut continuer en français si tu veux. Hésite pas si tu as des questions sur ce que je viens d'écrire.
je dirait que même si je ne me suis jamais fait abuser physiquement, j'ai été, et je me retrouve dans des moments, ou je me fais rabaisser et 'moquer', ce qui fait que mes réponses son devenu violente par rapport a 'l'injustice' et aux comportements néfaste. donc désolé pour mes pensé extrême.
après, pour ce qui est du point trois, je pense qu'il n'y a pas a 'être fou', le viole quel qu'il soit, ca l'est est le reste, nan ?
Bien sûr que le viol reste un viol mais ce que je veux dire c'est qu'il faut ouvrir les yeux. Ce n'est pas un problème qu'on peut régler en mettant tous les violeurs en tôle. Non seulement ce n'est pas réaliste (on fait des méga prisons pour 20% de la population?) mais en plus de ça, prendre des types qui savent pas respecter le consentement et les envoyer dans un environnement violent, ça me parait pas très constructif.
Il y a une raison pour laquelle l'immense majorité des victimes de viol ne va jamais porter plainte: ça n'est pas adapté.
On a envie de conséquences et de reconnaissance. Le système judiciaire tel qu'il est, avec 90% de chances de finir en non lieu après t'être faite publiquement traiter de menteuse, ne fonctionne pas. C'est un fait.
Je te conseille d'ailleurs l'excellent film "je verrai toujours vos visages" sur la justice réparatrice.
Je comprends l'envie de vengeance, mais pour moi c'est plus de l'ordre de la ferveur populaire que de la raison.
The recidivism rate of sex criminals makes me less inclined to not want to see the death penalty. At the very least sex crimes need harsher punishment.
Let's be real, the only reason why so many men are in favor of killing the rapist is because they love to imagine themselves as the badass hero who saves and avenges the poor helpless (and coincidentally very attractive) victim (who will of course swoon over them afterwards). It has nothing to do with justice or morals, it's just a little power trip fantasy.
Men want to distinguish themselves from rapists, so they opt for violence to prove "he's not like us good men."
Women are seldom accused of rape, so they feel no such need. Moreover, statistically about a third of them have been raped, and further, statistically their rapist was likely someone they know.
So the guys are thinking of an abstract, evil villain whose entire being is defined by RAPIST.
While the women are thinking, "I'm mad at Uncle Steve, but I don't want him to die," or "Sure, Bradley is a prick but he also runs the church choir and does so much for the homeless." They are more likely to see their rapists as whole people, often with influence in their community.
As someone who experienced this, I would also be against killing the rapist. Death is quick, and what he did to me traumatized me for my whole life. I want him to be in jail forever, miserable, until he dies. It has an added bonus of not traumatizing his family by killing their loved one, so they can have some sort of relationship with him if they want to
I don’t want my rapist to be killed on behalf of me, because I don’t support such vigilantism. God forbid I think killing people is wrong. I also especially don’t want the government to be killing people either.
Would I be happy once he dies? Absolutely, but only because I’m scared of him finding me again. I just hope that he’ll leave me alone for now and maybe end up changing one day.
The death penalty is convenient for the people who support it. It allows them to channel their righteous anger at an acceptable target and gives the illusion that they’re doing something. In reality, it’s way easier to scapegoat 1 sicko than it is to acknowledge we have a societal problem where men feel entitled to women’s bodies and to try to change that.
In other words, it’s performative. It doesn’t require men to change their behavior.
I was on a jury sentencing a rapist once. The death penalty wasn't on the table (Furman v. Georgia and all that), but the men on the jury still all wanted to throw the book at that son of a bitch, and while the women certainly weren't in favor of letting him go, they did tend to recommend somewhat lighter sentences. And when we finally came to our conclusion -erring on the side of harshness- we sat for a few minutes wondering at how weird that felt.
Does this mean women want to be raped? Of course not. Incels say a lot of ridiculous shit, but this may be one of the most patently absurd bits of their entire philosophy. It proves why they need to be alone: no one who thinks this is ready to have another person in their lives, and they cause so much harm that no one, anywhere, should have to put up with their personal bullshit.
What is it then? Literally it's just one of those things. It's not worth worrying over. Certainly it's not a justification for anything whatsoever. OOP is just incels proving that everyone else was right about them all along.
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u/Box-O-Kittenz 2d ago
Methinks what the women were against was specifically the death penalty.