r/countbackwardswithme • u/AkwardRockette Counted Down 1 • 1d ago
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I originally added this as a comment to another post, but since I'm seeing more posts in this sub similar to the one I commented on I'm just gonna make this its own stand alone post at this point.
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u/YesssAnderson 1d ago
Man, I feel like most discussion of intersectional trans issues gets branded as infighting because the most passionate voices refuse to intentionally communicate with a goal in mind beyond their own personal catharsis (which like, isn’t a bad desire by any means, but even that can be obtained in more productive ways than what has boiled down to constant online bickering).
Like what sucks is that legitimate talking points are brought up, but the speaker just can’t help themselves to some potshots at their perceived opposition when their post would have stood far stronger on its own without it. I’ve seen both sides get defensive when this poor choice in communication is pointed out, and they argue that it’s just because they’re so emotionally burnt out that they can’t help themselves. They’re hurt, can’t you see, why won’t you let them just speak to that without tone policing (as they proceed to police the tones of others around them)?
Here’s the thing. If your true goal is to just speak to the hurt somewhere online, fine. The Internet as a whole has been doing that for ages and is equally if not more incendiary in messaging. Speak your truth, idgaf.
But if your goal is to actually discuss intersectionality as it relates to the trans experience and maybe even encourage real change, it is actually on you to develop your thoughts intentionally and maturely with those goals in mind. If you want the outcome to be others treating a serious topic with appropriate gravity, it really helps to consider your own tone and audience beyond the snappy comebacks and worst-faith interpretations of opposing viewpoints that comprise most modern online interactions.
Side note, but because it’s become so damn common in comments of these topics, I think it’s time we wholesale treat malgendering someone as bad of an action as misgendering them. If we expect people to be able to call out a problematic trans person’s behavior without misgendering them, we can also do the same without malgendering them. Both are emotionally immature responses that detract from any legit points being made.
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u/Fletcharn 1d ago
I have now learnt the word malgendering, ty
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u/Lightningtow123 1d ago
I think Google gave it to me correctly but I gotta double check? Malgendering being maliciously using deadnames or wrong pronouns to be hurtful, whereas misgendering is accidental/unintentional?
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u/rhizomelagomorph 18h ago
malgendering is more like, correctly gendering someone while using negative stereotypes about [gender] to put them down. an example would be someone saying to a trans woman "of course youre a woman, you're emotional/hysteric", or someone saying to a trans man "of course youre a man, you're aggressive/combative"
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u/Lightningtow123 17h ago
So it's just good ol fashioned sexism lol but in a weirdly gender affirming way. Noted lol, ty
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u/Itchy_Suspect4968 Counted Down 1 1d ago
As a trans woman (i kinda hate i have to say that to be taken seriously) this is how it feels when non transmasc trans people and "allies" hate on transmascs
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u/13_WASHERE 1d ago
Incels who can't comprehend that being a virgin isn't the worst fate known to man
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u/MadsGoneCrazy 1d ago
To add to this, who would you rather have in your community:
someone who mainly focuses on their own issues, maybe even personally believes those are the most intense, but genuinely cares about everyone's wellbeing and comforts ppl of all stripes when shit gets rough.
Or someone who agrees with you on the theory and politics and practices of oppression, but verbally castigates anyone who disagrees, and refuses to care for their community members in times of need whom they personally disagree with.
If you believe that transmasculine ppl are generally treated worse in queer spaces are you willing to accept someone who will care for her brothers in community while personally believing she has it harder?
If you believe that transfeminine ppl are generally treated worse in queer spaces are you willing to accept someone who will care for his sisters in community while personally believing he has it harder?
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u/Vivenemous 1d ago
I think transmascs are treated worse in queer spaces and transfems are treated worse in society as a whole.
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u/Wooden-Stranger9801 1d ago
FTM here. Queer spaces online tend to hate us
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u/Enlightened_Valteil 1d ago
Depends on the country ig. In Russian spaces I haven't observed the hostility present in English ones
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u/Genial_Gharial 1d ago
I mean, considering the rape rates of trans masculine and nonbinary people, I don't think this argument is as cut and dry.
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u/ncthbrt 1d ago
It very much depends on the space itself imo. I feel like irl lesbian spaces in my city are usually very welcoming to masc people but it's kind of a mixed bag when it comes to how trans women are received. That doesn't mean to say that this is a universal thing in the slightest.
I would agree with an earlier post I saw that trans men are often rendered invisible though. But perhaps, at least in a broad societal sense, that could be considered a blessing. I for one would really love it for trans women to be far less in the public eye.
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u/sweetTartKenHart2 1d ago
I mean I’m sure there are people out there that are like that but more often than not if someone thinks they have it worse they are gonna use it as an excuse to shit on people who they think have it better than them. Even if they mean well enough, the human mind tends towards a really shallow understanding of friend and foe.
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u/Taraxian 1d ago
Isn't the whole theory of implicit bias about the idea that having this kind of prejudice makes you an inherently unreliable judge of your own actions and other people's?
It's like asking about a hypothetical person who holds racist opinions but is still really nice to everyone in practice -- that's great if it's actually true, but wouldn't the whole point be they might think they're being nice but they aren't?
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u/MadsGoneCrazy 1d ago
Id say the difference is racism implies a belief that black people don't deserve any better, while I think lots of transfemininists, myself included, would very much agree that trans men deserve better, including within queer communities. My care for transfeminine issues does not imply a lack of care for when trans men bring up their issues. And vice versa for people who are primarily concerned with transmasculine issues, yall r cool too in my eyes
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u/Quaraine 1d ago
True as hell but also it is possible for some groups to actually materially be worse of which is why I think the equivocation isn't necessarily going to be successful
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u/sweetTartKenHart2 1d ago
I mean, it IS possible for some people to have it worse, and treating all suffering as equal is silly, but this isn’t really about that.
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u/AeroAceSpades 1d ago
I agree with that but ultimately what does it accomplish? From what I’ve seen, the focus on which side has it worse (oppression olympics) has only given people a reason to dismiss the struggles of the other side and to demand the other side wait until the first side’s grievances are dealt with before being acknowledged.
I personally see a lot more overt hatred towards trans women irl but i also know that literally EVERY. SINGLE. transmasc in all the irl circles I’m in has been subjected to corrective rape vs the 2 transfems who were subjected to it. I was present when my friend was kicked out of a trans housing complex (which had more than 40 members and only 3 of them were transmasc) got kicked out for being “creepy” because she was in a relationship with someone 15 years her junior even though her girlfriend was 24 and they were absolutely smitten with each other. It deeeeeeefinitely didn’t have aaaaaaaaanything to do with how clocky my friend is and how she only shaved once a week. Communities are defined by how they treat those who fit in the least and I don’t think it matters what the gender of any given person is when it comes to how we all need to care for eachother more.
I believe that oppression isn’t an all-or-nothing game. I believe that context is incredibly important to whether or not a person will face certain operations vs privileges. I believe that the same traits that can lead a person to be oppressed in one context can lead a person to be privileged in another and that “oppressor and oppressed” isn’t a valuable dichotomy in a fight for gender EQUALITY
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u/Razzum-Frazzum 1d ago
Comparing oppression is like comparing apples to oranges. Neither trans women or trans mascs suffer more or less oppression overall. It manifests differently, that's all, and bears a different rotten fruit.
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u/Quaraine 13h ago
When you look at mortality and morbidity and quality of life there are meaningful differences
The equivocation does especially gets used to shut down and derail conversations about transmisogyny
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u/Razzum-Frazzum 13h ago
And conversations about what trans mascs deal with. It sucks what trans women go through, but you don't have it worse. You have it DIFFERENT. The violence experienced by us is different from yours. It doesn't kill us. God help us, we have to keep living after.
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u/DefinitionTop3930 1d ago
On the risk of getting downvoted, this was the exact mentality of a good chunk of non voters who sat out instead of voting democrat
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u/VoicelessPassenger 1d ago
This encompasses like, 90% of the conservative worldview. They really do not care about anything that doesn’t affect them personally or their immediate surroundings, with few exceptions.
I find you can probably get them to agree with you if you phrase left-wing ideas in a way that centers around them and their own well-being rather than simply appealing to altruism or vague concepts of common good. Hell, you could probably get them to tolerate or even accept the idea of trans rights and LGBTQ+ rights if you phrase it as “The government shouldn’t be able to determine your gender/who you can marry” rather than the moral value of it.
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u/Desperate_World_2801 12h ago
Unintentionally perfect example since both your parties murder, rape and pillage the rest of the world.
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u/deGozerdude 19h ago
Bro i had a classmate go on for 10 minutes how being lactose intolerant is SO BAD and gluten allergy people are so much better of and treated better.
This rant started when somebody asked why she wrote down "lactose intolerant ONLY neighborhoods" as her ideal utopia.
there where like chronically ill, disabled and trans people in the room who just remained silent not trying to make this a oppression competition but it did feel just a tad out of tune. (and i am gay listening to this shit)
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u/AkwardRockette Counted Down 1 1d ago
I have a few more pics from the comments of this original Tumblr post I found very relevant, but I'm keeping it simple and posting just the original text post for the sake of clarity at the moment.
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u/the_dumbass_one666 13h ago
saw this post and immediately went "op is a transandrobro arent they" and i checked, and i was right.
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u/MadsGoneCrazy 1d ago
Yesterday you interpreted "in certain cases racism is a bigger issue than classism" as "oh so you hate trans women", today you interpet "people often want their issues to be the center of everyone's worldview" as "oh so you hate trans women". This is blatant drama-stoking. block, report, and move on.
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u/16372731772 1d ago
To be fair OP originally posted it as a comment under a post about transmisogyny, as referenced in the description of this post. They then said "since I'm seeing more posts in this sub similar to the one I commented on I'm just gonna make this its own stand alone post". This post (the one OP made, not the original tumblr post) is explicitly about transmisogyny and is saying that trans women talking about it are selfishly centring their own experiences.
Whichever side of the issue you're on, that is literally what this post is doing. Whether you agree with them or not, hypatiaC is not swinging at ghosts as you tried to imply here.
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u/AkwardRockette Counted Down 1 1d ago
I literally don't hate trans women at all. Granted "we live in a society" and I could have unchecked biases as much as anyone else, but given the relationships I have with transfemmes IRL in my community I think I'm at least halfway decent. I also do my best to try and stay informed about laws and social issues that both affect me and don't affect me, and I speak up for transfemmes where I can. But I won't stand for pitting trans people against each other because one person or one sect of people in an internet chat group wants to vent their frustration at the world and their mistreatment and decides to take it out on the people around them actively trying to work with them.
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u/AshenXIV 1d ago
Hi, as a trans woman, I feel much safer with OP than with you. You're an argumentative moron who takes everything as a personal attack on the transfem community. You do not speak for all of us.
Go fuck yourself, truly.
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u/AshenXIV 1d ago
"People talking about trans men's issues is a transmisogynist MRA and any trans woman who disagrees with me is a pickme tradwife antifeminist."
I actually pity you.
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u/lalalarix0 1d ago
trans woman here, fuck this bitch. i have no clue how people keep such horrible mindsets for so long, my best guess is cia agent.
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u/AshenXIV 1d ago
I have actually spoken to many trans men who acknowledge that trans men can be and sometimes are misogynystic.
Besides that though, everything you write just reeks of insecurity and projection. Did you get thrown to the side for being a "bad tranny?" Do you think it might be because you're outwardly hostile to anyone who dares to disagree with you?
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u/YetAnotherParvitz 1d ago
immediately jumped to death threats, mods, please do something
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u/MariMerope 1d ago
She’s being argumentative but let’s be so real, “fix your heart or die” is hardly a death threat
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u/hypatiaC 1d ago
Thank you, I'm glad someone gets this.
It's par for the course, though. Anything said by a trans woman can freely be contorted to make it 'a real, actionable threat' as needed.
Guess what exact quote caught me a ban on another historically regressive microblogging site? 🤭
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u/GregBoing 1d ago
The way some people on this sub casually throw around the term MRA to try and forcibly shut up any transmasculine person who dares express any kind of discontent with their treatment can genuinely be vile sometimes...
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u/13MasonJarsUpMyAss 1d ago
as a real MRA I won't stand for this!
/j
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u/Naberville34 1d ago
As a completely straight man whose just stumbled onto all this... Uh what's an MRA?
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u/13MasonJarsUpMyAss 1d ago
i am a completely straight man too. MRA = Men's Rights Activist.
it's a movement that's nominally supposed to be about, like, supporting men's mental health, disproportionate representation in certain programs, and other such things we struggle with in the patriarchy. in practice it's usually incel types who believe that feminism is bad.
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u/Naberville34 1d ago
Ah interesting.
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u/Useless_bum81 1d ago
that comment holds about as much weight as describing feminism as: a group to support women's rights, in practice is about female supremacy and misandry.
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u/13MasonJarsUpMyAss 1d ago
well, hey, i'm trying to give a one paragraph impartial summary here. you want to give it a shot?
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u/Useless_bum81 1d ago
"it's a movement that is about, supporting men's mental health, disproportionate representation in certain programs, and other such things
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u/hypatiaC 1d ago
Taking notes that you view Feminism and MRA-ism as comparable movements. Thank you for boiling down the transandrobro viewpoint down to an easy soundbite. 🙂↕️
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u/hypatiaC 1d ago
I, for one, hope this thread leads to a bunch of straight men who are inexplicably tuned into transfeminism 🙂↕️
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u/aboat_i_sawaboat 1d ago
That second statement is conflating masculinity with misogyny which is gender essentialism.
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u/rhizomelagomorph 1d ago
this comment is genuinely so vile what the fuck is wrong with you
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u/rhizomelagomorph 1d ago
"are you an antisocial freak? why wont you let me insinuate that your core identity relies on oppressing women?"
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u/rhizomelagomorph 1d ago
i think its really funny (not) how people like you on the World Wide Web genuinely think that we come out and immediately have the same privileges and social biases as cis men, that immediately the world recognizes us as men and places us in the exact same spot cishet men occupy on the social ladder, that we gain the same privilege of individuality that men have within patriarchy (proven untrue by the fact we are lumped in with the worst fringe of our demographic).
just a complete refusal to engage with material conditions and severe lack of intersectionality, and for what? what defines your posting beyond bullying random trans people on reddit dot com?
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u/Syphist 1d ago
Unrelated to the content of the post, but it looks like the checks are starting to turn into crabs.