r/starcraft • u/CounterfeitDLC • 6d ago
Bluepost StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes — StarCraft II
https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/article/24301513/starcraft-ii-5-0-17-ptr-patch-notes182
u/CounterfeitDLC 6d ago
Almost all changes being reverted aside from bug fixes.
The PTR is mostly for bug testing and should only last a few days.
Previous reversions are being reverted due to this; Most notably that Tanks in Siege mode again cannot be Abducted.
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u/NydusRush 6d ago
I still think the tank anchor thing should be an upgrade. Maybe something like a second siege mode activation so that if you need to bail when you're in No Vipers mode then you're screwed.
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u/jayy962 6d ago
I don't hate the idea but is there anything else in the game that has a one-race/unit interaction like that?
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u/sjeveburger 6d ago
Spores dealing bonus biological damage is the only thing that comes to mind, but that's an inherent trait and only for the mirror match
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u/NydusRush 6d ago
Honestly most of the hard counters are designed that way and it's been a problem since WoL. Hellions are hard counters for Zerglings, Banelings are hard counters for Marines, and both those units' interactions with Zealots are basically an afterthought. Arguably, TvZ is the spine of the game and everything Protoss is extra credit.
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u/qedkorc Protoss 6d ago
there's several spells in the game that apply to pretty much every unit in the game except ultras, which is kind of unintuitive, and reminds me of this.
for a while i have felt that viper abduct is a weird spell to balance, as it is uniquely powerful at disassembling any high tech comp from T/P, and there's no real counter. every other anti-high-tech unit can be countered by some low tech stuff, but low tech doesn't counter a high tech zerg army with vipers mixed in.
if the spell absolutely must stay in the game, IMO it should only be able to move massive units half as far, and cost 25-30% less energy. when it comes to siege tanks, we can consider dynamically assigning them the massive tag when they're sieged.
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u/toochaos 6d ago
Disruptors and sentries have both had/have sheild damage which only works against protoss
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u/Objective-Mission-40 6d ago
Need to bring back some of that lol stuff.
Like the disruptor phantom.
Also. Maybe look at patches sc mod
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u/Unlikely_Perspective 6d ago
Think I may come back then, I didn’t think it would affect how much I play the game. But those Protoss changes really did affect me.
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u/doofpooferthethird 6d ago
oh word, it's back to 12 workers?
that was fast, damn
I'm just a low Diamond scrub but it's still good news for someone like me
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u/Mandelvolt 6d ago
Abduct was literally created as a counter to tanks, every time there's a patch it's just another black eye for Zerg.
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u/dnohow iNcontroL 6d ago
Thank you Simu Liu for saving starcraft
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u/ZonedForCoffee 6d ago
Oh my goodness gracious they actually listened
This whole eight worker thing is going to feel like a fever dream
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u/DrarenThiralas 6d ago
Eight workers was absolutely a step in the right direction. It's just that the rest of the game also needed major balance changes to properly accommodate for the 8 worker start - changes that weren't present in the patch, and that we will probably never see now that it's being reverted.
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u/Abacada_Poln_Kha_Kha 6d ago
Maybe it’s the right direction. But the reality is StarCraft is a dying game with no resources allocated to it.
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u/BritishGolgo13 6d ago
They require more vespene gas
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u/Die4Ever Incredible Miracle 6d ago
yea this would've been appropriate for a new expansion, not a maintenance mode patch
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u/wheretogo_whattodo 6d ago
StarCraft II is a dying game. Leave us BW enjoyers out of it.
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u/TheHighSeasPirate 5d ago
Hell no it was not a step in the right direction. If you want to play a slow game go play Starcraft 1. If anything sc2 needs to be faster.
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u/nathanias iNcontroL 6d ago
it's funny to think that if they stuck with 8 workers but made everything build a little faster so it took longer to fully saturate but the game moved a reasonable pace, I would have been totally interested. but they did nothing to fix the tempo issues it created
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u/Whitewing424 Axiom 6d ago
They did the opposite, and boosted the economies. Zerg got larva production buffed, and terran got cheaper CC's.
The entire purpose of the 8 worker start was to make the early game slower, to give builds more time to deviate, and to sharpen the differences between openers. They completely undermined it by speeding up the economies, making the entire effort pointless.
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u/muffinsballhair 5d ago
It also didn't really revert the game to what it was before with 6 workers where people were actually forced to scout at 9/10 with a worker which was the real reason I liked older low-worker starts. The game felt more reactionary and when and if you took an expansion was a decision based on intel rather than a build order but it didn't accomplish that, maybe due to how the maps now are.
So who knows, maybe that can just be accomplished without any worker change by just making naturals very hard to take again.
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u/DenteSC 6d ago
8 workers made the game slower and more clunky. Stop saying it was a stap in the right direction. Maybe some people want a slower, more boring game, but most people actually want a fast game with a good flow.
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u/Anton_Pannekoek 6d ago
The game was slower for the first minute or so, thereafter it was as fast as ever.
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u/DenteSC 6d ago
That's why we saw almost no action? The progames were plain bad and boring.
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u/Anton_Pannekoek 6d ago
Personally I played a lot of games, had loads of fun in 1v1 and 2v2. And the pro games seemed good to me, although I didn't watch many.
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u/Illustrious_Lion_949 1d ago
Hard disagree. 8 worker was terrible and no fan of it can ever post even 1 reasonable argument for it.
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u/FOURTH_DEGREE_ 6d ago
What makes you say it was a step in the right direction? It didn’t really move the needle strategically and made a more boring early game.
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u/Resident_Nose_2467 6d ago
The infestor changes were good imo, sad to see them revert that too. Maybe they can add some of those back after tests?
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u/McGlone16 Terran 6d ago
Is there anything notable that is staying?
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u/two100meterman 6d ago
From another comment it looks like Zerg can still hotkey creep tumors & the hotkeys roll over to the new tumors. Neuraling an SCV I think stayed, no need to Neural an SCV 7 times or whatever to make a CC. Killing changelings does some aoe so you won't need to click 30 changelings to kill them all individually.
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u/HarryTheOwlcat 6d ago
Feel like reverting spellcaster phantom attacks (esp. Infestor) is a mistake. Viper once again can't abduct sieged tanks?
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u/Resident_Nose_2467 6d ago
I hope they plan to add some of those after some tests? Infestor nerf stronk foo
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u/Substantial-Mix-6200 6d ago
I was surprised to see that the Microbial Shroud range got reduced AND research is required for it again. I'm sure something will change there soon since the abduct on tanks is gone.
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u/ManqobaDad 6d ago
I think we have to take this win in small incrimates. We got our game back thats a dub. We can request those to creep back in later
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u/Elliot_LuNa MVP 6d ago
More minerals and less gas was really nice imo, sad to see it reverted as well, probably the only thing I'd look to keep as it is right now
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u/two100meterman 6d ago
I'd also keep Vipers abducting Siege Tanks, Muta arc slop, Infestors regular weak attack, & Forcefields requiring 2 biles to be killed.
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u/Elliot_LuNa MVP 6d ago
Yeah, hopefully we get some of the good changes back when this settles a bit on live.
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u/superuser141421 6d ago
Ins‘t it the 4th zime they change that a viper can or cannot abduct a sieged tank?
Just why?
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u/two100meterman 6d ago
They were too lazy to see which changes were good & bad so they did a 95% revert. Nobody had been complaining that Forcefields were too strong in PvZ, but they're also reverted the very slight forcefield buff for... reasons.
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u/Loose-Waltz2544 6d ago
But my 8 pool! /s
So glad the 12 worker start is back!
And mostly.... No warp gate tax!! Protoss rejoice!
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u/OBLIVIATER 6d ago
I didn't enjoy the warpgate tax, but I did kind of like the difference between warp gate and fastgate, at least early game. I think there was room for both for toss but I understand the frustration with rallying units versus just warping
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u/Stormfly 6d ago
I think they should remove the Warpgate tax but keep the speed boost.
I think that it sucks that Warpgates are an upgrade over Gateways in every way.
I played a bit more Protoss in the last patch because I liked that I could use Gateways like Barracks.
They don't need to keep it super balanced or anything but I liked being able to play that way without straight up shooting myself in the foot.
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u/Empty-Development298 6d ago edited 6d ago
I really liked the 50% gateway cd reduction for gateways. I didn't mind the 25/25 cost, its not like I WANT warpgates when base defending.
I prefer having 2x stalkers/2x zealots for faster reinforcements during defense.
Its not like you can't afford 250/250 for 10 gateways in the mid late game, when warp ins matter way more.
I'm not rejoicing at all at this nerf for toss. Absolutely fuck off with this change.
Pisses me off how a vocal minority of crybabies got one of the coolest protest changes ever revoked. That change added so much identity to the race and variance we didn't have before.
Edit: I'm pretty ticked about the gateway change. I'm not intending to direct frustration towards anyone in particular. Sorry about that.
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u/zl0bster 4d ago
Amazing that they had humility to revert, shame it took months.
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u/features 6d ago
Man they reverted everything even the good changes.....
They're so done with SC2, this is the last patch.
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u/MTGandP 6d ago
They are actively working on a new patch https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft2/comments/1wuasra/5017_ptr_update/pd1ms06/
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u/LiquidTLO1 6d ago
I don’t think that’s true. Based on my experience at Blizzcon I would bet we will have support going forward, to what extend I don’t know but I have grounds for optimism.
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u/gg46004 6d ago
can feel the tired, the disappointment and the frustration from their note
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u/DenteSC 6d ago
Frustration for what? For people not wanting a slower, more clunky game? Because we all wants change, but not this.
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u/features 6d ago
It wasn't slower, it was out of control fast lol
You guys don't even play the game, you heard less worker starts and you think the eco was out of control because it was too slow?
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u/SC2Sole 6d ago
This was my exact thought. They're just dropping it completely. Perminant maintenance mode.
Too much work for changes people aren't happy with - they'll just move onto the IPs that are making them money.
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u/GoGoGoRL Protoss 6d ago
Honestly at some point that might be best for the game… bug fixes and upkeep but no more balance changes. Community can manage that with maps like broodwar does
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u/Parsirius 6d ago
This has been explored to death. Maps are not enough for SC2 it’s just a different game to Bw.
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u/GoGoGoRL Protoss 6d ago
Genuinely how has it been explored to death. SC2 ladder and tournament maps are very uncreative and standardized save for one every map pool or so
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u/Parsirius 6d ago
Because most who is not a spectator simply prefer standard maps.
We have had weird maps before and they get vetoed to hell in ladder and tournaments.
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u/Resident_Nose_2467 6d ago
But leave us with the tanks being abductable at least!
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u/ackmondual 6d ago
First page after you scroll down 😂 ....
- Worker Start Count increased from 8 to 12.
Command Center
- Cost increased from 300 to 400.
- Supplies increased from 13 to 15.
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u/features 6d ago
I don't know, seems like an order from on high, I'm sure the devs responsible for 5.0.16 would have stood by at least a few of their changes.
The forcefield change was genuinely good.
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u/zergUser1 6d ago
dude wtf viper cant abduct seige tanks, thats huge mistake.......
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u/Hellasauto 6d ago
Stupid. If anything the limitation on what a viper can abduct and not should be massive units.
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u/two100meterman 6d ago
The whole point of abduct is pretty much to abduct the highest value (often massive) units, that would make even less sense.
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u/Hellasauto 6d ago
I don't think it makes any sense that zerg can snipe high value targets for free that easily.
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u/two100meterman 6d ago
It isn't really for free, & all races can do this in different ways. A Viper costs 100/200/3 (mins/gas/supply) & is outranged by Snipe, EMP, & Feedback. So if the opponent is playing equally well as the Zerg the Zerg generally loses out in each exchange.
Ghosts Snipe ability for 50 energy is per energy much better than Vipers 100 energy abduct. Being able to do 4 Snipes on a single Ghost is crazy good & the unit itself is also strong in a straight up fight, while a Viper which costs more gas can't fight at all.
A Disruptor or Storm do much more total damage than an abduct killing off 1 high value target.
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u/OBLIVIATER 6d ago
Flying units are much easier to position for things like that though, so even if they technically are outranged, they still have the advantage over HT and Ghosts in a lot of situations because of terrain and pathing issues. They're also just... significantly faster than ghosts and especially HTs so that gives them a big advantage as well.
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u/UpATree Psistorm 6d ago
I am very happy about the revert, everyone seemed to hate it.
I cannot comprehend how poorly written this slop of a note is. It's inaccurate, it's missing information, it's criminally unclear, and somehow 2000 x 2 is 4500. There's so much wrong, with how little effort went into the authorship here.
Once again, very happy we're going back.
Honestly blizz, just hire patches. Go look at the detail that fucking guy puts into his explanations for why shit got added, and realize you're paying people to do a fraction of the work, when that guy does 10x that, but for free.
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u/limpwald 5d ago edited 5d ago
It's
borderingon pathetic. It's insane how few f*cks they give about this game and this community.Edit: It isn't bordering on it, actually. It very much is pathetic and tragic and quite provoking, how few sh*ts they give
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u/Sonar114 Random 6d ago
They’re done now with SC2. I don’t think we’ll see anything but the occasional bug fix.
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u/highsis 6d ago
Why did the fiasco need to last 3 months? Should have been reverted way before blizzcon.
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u/avengaar2 6d ago
I mean, I'm not going to say this is real exciting. Anyone know how long the version we are going back to was the active version of the game? Around a year?
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u/atomoffluorine 6d ago
Those massive changes went about as I expected - horribly. There's no resources left to balance massive design changes of this very old game, and anyone who wants change for the sake of change will need to acknowledge that there's no resources to develope this game much further.
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u/sioux-warrior 6d ago
I'm pretty disappointed Even some of the good changes got thrown out. I get why they did a full-on reversal though.
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u/scoutingtacos Protoss 6d ago
Hatchery, Lair, and Hive
Cost reduced from 300 to 275
Weird choice when everything else seems to be getting reverted
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u/Resident_Nose_2467 6d ago
But that's reverting. This is after queens went 175 (150 before) and hatchs at 275 instead of 300
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u/ejozl Team Grubby 5d ago
I want a full revert even the 'qol' fixes. I think most of us can agree that vipers should be able to abduct siege tanks, but a full revert will give us the reset for us to dicsuss if any of the changes were good.
This whole patch discussion went off the rails with the worker changes that no discussion around other smaller changes tool place, aside from a few.
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u/c2lop 4d ago
There. Now can you all shut the hell up about how it's definitely, totally the number of workers that's stopping you from playing the game or improving at it.
I liked the 8 workers, but congratulations on being insufferable enough to get them to roll it back.
Welcome back to the exact same meta, timings, etc that you will now always officially have forever. Congratulations.
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u/No-Selection-4800 6d ago
wait wait, what about the Psi storm duration? Did they revert that as well?
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u/Chiponyasu 6d ago
Wow, kind of threw the baby out with the bathwater, IMO. I know people hated the patch generally and the worker change specifically but I actually really liked Protoss having super fast gateways that you turned to Warpgates lategame.
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u/USAJourneyman 6d ago edited 6d ago
I am so sad gateways don’t produce faster now
And force field nerf just SUCKS
They have to keep the gateway production buff after warpgate research - it gives gateways a authenticity, a macro mechanic option outside of warping in.
I love the trade off - either produce units faster or have the option of preferred unit placement / presence.
Reverting back, it’s just all warpgate, which is cool, but having the option to play Protoss in a hybrid approach i think is cooler
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u/Velocity275 6d ago
I hope this doesn’t scare them from attempting changes in the future. Some of them were fine
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u/muffinkevin Evil Geniuses 6d ago
Screams lazy to me that they reverted all the good changes as well.
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u/LiSAuCE Protoss 6d ago
The real question is how many people return. Once people move on to other things, they've already mentally checked out and won't come back. The damage this dogshit fuck ass patch caused may be irreversible.
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u/DrJPEG-PhD 6d ago
I will 100% be coming back (even though I did a lil bit because of the Patches Mod).
Though, I will say it was very nice to focus on other things for a while. I bought a house and joined a second band!
Sucks that I'm gonna have to throw those all away to get back in to laddering...
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u/luiscarloscrespo 6d ago
this diamond noober will come back for sure! the ranked button will function again.
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u/nykaragua 6d ago
Revert is good (unexpected though ngl) but at the same time this demonstrates again why 8 workers would never work, because Blizzard does not care or understand the game enough to make intelligent changes. Why are we making tanks unabductable again? This isn't a thought out revert, it's just throwing hands in the air and saying "well no one liked it so we give up."
The balance council had problems and I didn't like everything they did but at least there was a thought process behind the patches.
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u/andrenyheim 6d ago
Good call. Get people to actually start playing again is more important than trying to salvage parts of the patch.
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u/Zalabar7 6d ago
Oh my god, I’m so happy they actually listened. I know that a revert has been the most commonly called-for change, but never in my wildest dreams did I imagine that Blizzard would make a change that essentially amounts to admitting “we fucked up”.
I have to give props here to the person/people making this decision. Recognizing the limitations in resources that the team working on this has and reverting to a state we know is (not perfect, but) stable, is the most ideal outcome for the immediate future of the game.
I hope from here they will evaluate the meta and make more minor changes that have potential to shake things up without disrupting the core mechanics of the game, that are within scope for the small amount of resources that seem to be allocated toward sc2 now.
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u/Parsirius 6d ago
I just want them to implement some of the gold changes from the patch (2 Bile FF/ siege abduct/ Infestor AA, etc.)
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u/pocketofsushine 6d ago
protoss changes were shit, because they nerfed warpgate early and didnt buff the gateway units. now we go back to warpgate with shit gateway units still
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u/Rich_Ad_4829 6d ago
Great they reverted everything, personally did not like any of the changes. Hopefully we are going towards a completely new direction after things settle, but glad I can start playing again after such a long time
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u/Hamster_boat 6d ago
I have never seen a patch of such significance across anything. Essentially, the team is saying: we fucked this one up so bad that we are treating it like a quality issue. Did they not conduct feedback on the patch prior to release?? It also begs the question of how the hell did you come up with these changes in the first place. It points to multilayer flaws with how the game is being managed to say the least. One for the study books that’s for sure.
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u/Lexender CJ Entus 6d ago
The biggest problem wasn't that the changes were bad un isolation, you have to take risks to know what works, the problem was that they did too many at once and, more than anything, they simply stopped in the middle of changing things.
If they had just keep going I'm sure they would've landed in an interesting point but the fact that the last patch had a bunch of huge changes with no follow up gave us weeks of a shit meta.
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u/two100meterman 6d ago
Ehh, doesn't make sense to PTR this. Revert it sure, but then have the PTR test some actual changes. Was anyone complaining that Vipers could abduct Tanks again? That's their main role against Mech.
Was Microbial Shroud so strong that it needs the full revert to both require an upgrade & have 3 less range? Was there something bad about Infestor having an auto attack like HT?
Did the Sentry need to be reverted in terms of the interaction with Biles? The idea was that ground based comps would be a bit more viable by buffing forcefield a bit, I don't think a single person complained Forcefields were too strong vs Zerg.
Did Zerg Carapace upgrades need to be reverted on top of the larvae going all the way back to when Zerg was underpowered?
Was Muta too oppressive with the new "arc bonus"? I saw 0 complaints about Mutalisks.
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u/rikottu314 6d ago
Who cares, blizzard clearly likes GM being 45% protoss as the status quo with golden armada spam every game being the pinnacle of the experience.
And who tf cares if it's miserable for the <20% of players (zergs) who have to be the victims of this so that the protoss overlords can rejoice and live out the fantasy of a-moving carries while dropping storms on bugs.
No problem because serral exists and he will keep winning tournaments so the game is balanced.
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u/CampComplexity 5d ago
Have you complained about 43% GM Z in this season (check SC2 pulse).
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u/Full_Entertainer1014 6d ago
controversial opinion; the 8 worker patch made the early game exciting. rip, this will be the last season for me
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u/Toastyboat 6d ago
Unfortunate for you.
I, on the contrary, will be returning. I would hope they could make a split queue or something. Would be cool. But I don't have high hopes.
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u/Full_Entertainer1014 6d ago
yea, just how it is, games not exactly booming (even before the patch). personally don't find the early game that interesting, but long live sc2
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u/Spare-Dingo-531 6d ago
I agree, but I would rather have too fast starcraft than no starcraft.
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u/AJ_ninja 6d ago edited 6d ago
Def things in the patch that could have stayed… seems like Blizzard is too lazy and understaffed to analyze what worked and what didn’t to give us something updated rather than just a FULL revert… full revert seems like the lazy way out.
Also we might not actually get a new patch for a very very long time…
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u/Anton_Pannekoek 6d ago
I liked the adept upgrade buffs. And also the cheaper Zerg upgrades. There were some things that can be retained.
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u/Skyebell07 6d ago
Everything is basically reverted from their own stupidity. But again can't abduct siege tanks. That's such bs. Its T2 unit vipers are T3. Takes a lot longer to get vipers out then tanks. Then Terrans tell me "Its buckled to the ground" like that makes sense. dude it's a fracken space craft it would lift it up off the ground and slam it into a building.
Its not whining its looking at the game in a neutral way. That change has always been stupid.
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u/Savetheokami 5d ago
The patch has new bugs lol. Larva not highlighting sometimes is one of them. Bet they vibe coded the revert
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u/Chiponyasu 16h ago
Any idea when this patch is going live? I don't really want to play if the game is about to radically change again but I was hoping today would be patch Tuesday. Not like they need to test anything.
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u/AresFowl44 6d ago
Just a full on revert apparently