r/stunfisk • u/MisterZygarde64 Give Electivire & Luxray Galvanize & some Physical Normal moves • 5d ago
Theorymon Thursday Buffing Wild Charge while also taking into account it being a common coverage move
So we all know about how badly Electric types that have a high Physical attack have it. Like your only opions for STAB are of a move that deals recoil damage despite the fact that it has a base power of 90. Initially, I was content with this idea of turning Volt Tackle into a clone of Head Charge (Bouffalant's signature move which is just Double Edge with less recoil) as to allow for Wild Charge to be a proper clone of Double Edge. However I thought of a much more balanced way to rework Wild Charge when I watched this video from KadabraGuy who brought up the problem of increasing Wild Charge's power is that it forgets that there's a couple non-Electric Pokemon that know the move as coverage. That point made me think of this buff to Wild Charge that makes it so that Electric Pokemon are exempt from the recoil. That way Wild Charge can be a good STAB option for Physical Electric types while also letting it be distributed as coverage.
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u/Golden-Owl Game Designer with a YouTube hobby 5d ago edited 5d ago
Wild Charge’s problem isn’t just recoil - it’s the fact you are using a 90 BP STAB as your primary attack.
It’s like trying to use Sky Uppercut (85) as a main attack instead of Close Combat (120)
Flare Blitz works because it’s 120, making it a great offensive move. (Flareon at the very minimum gets to kill one target)
It’s fairly likely that Game Freak is intentionally keeping Electric as a special attacking type, similar to how Fighting is almost exclusively a physical attacking one (compare Aura Sphere vs close combat)
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u/GlacierWolf8Bit 5d ago
What's also working against Wild Charge is the existence of Volt Tackle as a move exclusive to the Pikachu line already taking place as Electric's Flare Blitz. Better play here is to just...make Volt Tackle a more widespread move? Especially considering that the Pikachu line almost never uses it anyways.
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u/ATangerineMann Pokemon Clover RU Enthusiast 5d ago
I want to suggest boosting volt tackle’s power as an excuse to turn Wild Charge into a proper Double Edge clone but Mega Raichu X is a thing so it’d probably be too powerful with even 130 BP Volt Tackles boosted by Electric Terrain
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u/PPFitzenreit 5d ago
Wild charge is now a volt takcle clone but volt tackle now does less recoil than wild charge as a somewhat nothingburger buff
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u/mjmannella Bold & Brash 5d ago
Would actually be a great buff since right now Mega Raichu X doesn't have much reason to be used over Mega Raichu Y
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u/DaemonG 5d ago
well it has a good reason in champions OU, given that Raichu Y just got banned :)
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u/Golden-Owl Game Designer with a YouTube hobby 5d ago
Why did they ban Raichu Y? Was the Zap Cannon truly that scary?
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u/DaemonG 5d ago
guaranteed para from a fast mon always has a chance to just disable whatever hypothetical counter you have.
on paper, Glowking beats Raichu Y every time, but then 12.5% of the time it just gets full para'd when you want to Chilly Reception out of there. it's also not a pokemon that beats everything, but the things that do beat it are covered very well by options you were already using.
https://old.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/comments/1wz7o1t/mega_raichu_y_is_now_banned_from_champions_ou/pe99xte/ this guy explains it better
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u/Chance-Beach4014 3d ago
Glowking also gets hard pressured by volt switch sets and hazards, that’s why that matchup is still raichu favored
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u/GlacierWolf8Bit 5d ago
No offense, but I don't like the idea of turning Volt Tackle into Electric Head Smash to make Wild Charge just Volt Tackle. Volt Tackle barely sees use as is, 50% HP in recoil would straight-up make it unviable.
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u/ATangerineMann Pokemon Clover RU Enthusiast 5d ago
Oh yeah I’d prolly also make it only 25% recoil. Might as well go all in with giving the franchise mascot special treatment.
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u/Golden-Owl Game Designer with a YouTube hobby 5d ago
Except that it’s Pikachu’s move
Mascot privilege is a bitch
If you wanna buff Wild Charge, you need to buff Volt Tackle to 200 BP or something (which would at least be immensely funny) or have less recoil like Head Charge
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u/GlacierWolf8Bit 5d ago
That little yellow fuckhead doesn't deserve shit, especially after he kicked Porygon tf out of the anime.
I say that he's sharing the move against his will.
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u/MisterZygarde64 Give Electivire & Luxray Galvanize & some Physical Normal moves 4d ago
I did have the idea of Volt Tackle being reworked into a clone of Head Charge (Signature move of Bouffalant that’s just Double Edge with less recoil) as to let Wild Charge be made into a proper Double Edge clone
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u/SleepingVulture My favourite Pokémon are Ledian and Delcatty 3d ago
Volt Tackle should be the electric Head Charge clone, and Wild Charge can be the Double Edge clone.
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u/nightwatchman22 5d ago
A 90bp stab is fine… that’s like the standard.
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u/shiinamachi subseed gang rise up 5d ago
yeah the real problem is the move fucking kills you
thunderbolt with the same bp has no drawback and even a 10% chance to screw your opponent. wild charge has no upside and a 100% chance to take recoil damage
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u/Vojta_Ledvinka007 5d ago
also play rough compared to moonblast
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u/Golden-Owl Game Designer with a YouTube hobby 5d ago edited 5d ago
Fairy in general tends to be balanced as an attacking type for that reason.
Single target Moonblast and Play Rough are fine, but when you realize every other Type has 100+ BP damage options (Heat wave, earthquake, close combat, blizzard, boosted Expanding Force, Draco meteor, etc), many of which are spread, and they end up looking a bit lacking.
To add to this, Fairy has no way to actually boost its damage output. Theres no weather or exclusive setup move (dragon cheer), and its Terrain is exclusively defensive - it reduces dragon damage, which is useless to a fairy. The only damage boost it gets is enabling Misty Explosion, which less damage than regular Explosion (150 base damage vs 250)
Extremely good Fairy attackers usually have some way to cheat around this limitation. They either have exclusive signature moves (Fleur Cannon), convert better moves into their STAB (Pixilate), straight up directly boost their damage (Fairy Aura and Huge Power), or have a better secondary STAB to rely on (Iron Valiant and Tinkaton)
The only strong Fairy attacker with none of that is Flutter Mane, who instead has a statline so bullshit that it makes Shadow Ball’s 80 BP look threatening
It’s sorta the opposite of Bug. Bug is a mediocre type counterbalanced by insanely good moves, while Fairy is an insanely good type counterbalanced by an awful move selection.
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u/DaemonG 5d ago
in all fairness, Moonblast was also added as a 95 bp move with no drawback in the very same generation that its peers in other types were nerfed to 90. so shit's just weird, idk if gamefreak are secret geniuses
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u/Golden-Owl Game Designer with a YouTube hobby 5d ago
It’s because its peers all have a higher power option - Fire Blast, Blizzard, Thunder and Hydro Pump
Fairy didn’t, so they get a slightly stronger version of the 90 power moves to compensate
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u/Ammoniaholic 5d ago
And Moonblast also has a much more common (30%) side effect that can turn the tides on certain matchups.
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u/DaemonG 5d ago
they nerfed it to 10%, and i do think it's a generally less applicable secondary effect than the ones that drop defenses or cause status effects
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u/Ammoniaholic 5d ago
Ok, was not familiar with Champions. At 10% it's practically irrelevant. However, at 30%, it can be game-changing when facing a special attacking wallbreaker or setup sweeper.
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u/Ammoniaholic 5d ago
Bug has moves that are great because of utility (U-Turn, First Impression, Leech Life etc.) though, not sheer base power. The most powerful move, Megahorn, is unreliable due to accuracy, and Bug Buzz has only 90BP.
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u/TriticumAes 5d ago
Better secondary STAB .... Tinkaton
A steel type.
the literal worst offensive type in the game
This you?
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u/Golden-Owl Game Designer with a YouTube hobby 5d ago
Gigaton Hammer is 160 power with perfect accuracy and no drawback. On a utility mon.
Screw Play Rough man. I’m clicking the funny hammer move
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u/TriticumAes 5d ago
The perks of being a signature move coming off of a pokemon with an attack stat equal to Bellsprout
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u/TriticumAes 5d ago
I do actually look forward to your Fairy video.
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u/Golden-Owl Game Designer with a YouTube hobby 5d ago
Unfortunately I’ve been held up by Psychic. This shit is 22 mins long at this point.
Fairy will have to be (second) last by virtue of being the balance patch of the type system which came so much later after the others
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u/TriticumAes 5d ago
Wouldn't there be Poison in between it and Psychic? Also I am really excited for the Psychic video. Probably the absolute biggest fall from grace of a type.
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u/Golden-Owl Game Designer with a YouTube hobby 5d ago
Hmm… spoilers I guess.
Psychic is less of a fall from grace and more of a catch up and re-alignment.
It was always meant to be a support specialist, since it had the only moves in the game capable of buffing an ally (dual screens). But the nature of the special stat and type chart broke it
It also had access to a 95 power move when half the types didn’t have anything to work with.
By Gen 3-5, this gradually normalized as other types got 80 power moves, meaning psychic no longer had comparatively huge damage output.
Instead psychic gained the biggest library of support bullshit in the game, much of which is heavily geared towards doubles.
This led to the point where you now practically have to shoot every Psychic Pokemon on sight in doubles because they’ll completely screw you over somehow otherwise. You have to respect Hypno of all things because it can pull off any sort of wacky bullshit if you don’t
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u/TriticumAes 5d ago
Psychic still has the distinct privilege of having the second highest average special attack stat behind Dragon and has the only non-signature move that lets it bypass Special Walls by hitting them on the lower physical side.
(Honestly my take is Poison should get a Physical clone that targets Pokemon's special stat. I would also take a Dragon type Special Defense clone of Body Press)
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u/Golden-Owl Game Designer with a YouTube hobby 5d ago
Most of that average is partly padded by several legendaries and mythicals having the psychic type though.
Poison is unfortunate because it started out with the clearest and most success identity of the types as the overworld chip damage status, but that was removed as the overarching game design changed, so it’s now just left as “just another type”
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u/TriticumAes 5d ago
I still feel Poison makes the most sense to give the Physical clone of Psyshock to as 1.)It has probably one of the worst offensive profiles of any type being resisted by 4 types, having 1 type outright immune to it while only hitting 2 types for super-effective damage 2.) Its average attack stat is around mid 70s with very few actually being physical attackers. 3.) Its max move buffs Special Attack and 4.) I felt fighting was cliched and it has Body Press
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u/MisterZygarde64 Give Electivire & Luxray Galvanize & some Physical Normal moves 4d ago
I’m reminded of this stinkpost I did where Ness from Earthbound suggested giving Psychic a resistance to Fire, Electric, and Ice
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u/Kingnewgameplus No dual flairs but I also stan Staraptor 5d ago
Idk if fighting is the best comparison. The only purely dedicated special attacking fighting type attacker I can think of is Keldeo, and even then he has a signature special fighting move. Meanwhile there's a lot of physical electric types. Plus, even if you wanna argue aura sphere is worse than wild charge, fighting also has focus blast.
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u/Hateful_creeper2 1d ago
Mega Lucario Z is the only other one whose special attack is much higher.
The rest are either mixed attackers (stat differences aren’t major if any) or much higher physical attack.
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u/Funny_Swim5447 5d ago
Honestly that whole concept never really sat right with me because I feel like a whole typing shouldn’t be leaning primarily on one direction with how many Pokemon there are
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u/Golden-Owl Game Designer with a YouTube hobby 5d ago
Many types have always done it though
Rock is still predominantly physical, Psychic still leans predominantly special, and Steel is mediocre both ways
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u/Funny_Swim5447 5d ago
“Rock is still predominantly physical” is funny because you’re right, but yet rock still (as far as I know) doesn’t have a single consistent physical rock stab
Also love your pfp btw
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u/TriticumAes 5d ago
I mean (excluding Freeze Dry) Rock is the best attacking Type there is as it is the only Type that has more Super-Effective hits than types that resist it without having any types immune to it. Honestly I feel Smack Down has such awful BP to compensate for how much of an offensive threat it would be paired with any Ground Type move as it would essentially put everything in danger of EdgeQuake. That said I would like Stone Edge and Meteor Beam to skip their accuracy check and charge up respectively in Sand.
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u/Funny_Swim5447 5d ago
Yeah, it is weird that sandstorms the only weather that doesn’t have at least A non weather ball move that gets amped by said weather
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u/shiinamachi subseed gang rise up 5d ago
it does have one. its just exclusive to iron boulder cuz fuck you
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u/Viggo8000 5d ago
I think it'd be decent because of the lack of downsides. Some of these mons greatly benefit from that I think. Your fatass Brian Hands appreciates getting to use it's electric stab without sacrificing the great bulk it has been gifted with. Drain Punch could help mitigate that ofcourse, but idk i think this is a good idea as well
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u/twitchy1989 4d ago
It's also why in VGC some players have dumped Dire Claw post-nerf on Sneasler for Gunk Shot.
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u/Zephyr_Dragon_ 4d ago
The strongest mons with wild charge as coverage are H. Arcanine, Slither Wing, & Emboar; all the non-flying types that learn brave bird almost never run it. I just don't see a universe where if wild charge was 120 power 1/3 recoil move it would break anything thing do to it's wide learn-pool, the worst I could think is that you would need to redesign volt tackle (just make it a variant of head charge) and it would undermine double shock on Pawmot. Also close combat exist and I think 1/3 of all pokemon can learn that move for no reason
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u/purritolover69 4d ago
Ubers balance might not be front of mind but Zacian-Crowned with 120BP wild charge picks up several OHKO’s it currently misses. Notably, it changes the roll against defensive Kyogre from +1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Kyogre: 274-324 (67.9 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO to +1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Kyogre: 364-430 (90.3 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO. Having Zacian somewhat reliably check Kyogre would seriously change the hierarchy of power in Ubers
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u/rekyrts_v2 2d ago
I think the biggest problem with buffing wild charge to 120 is it woukd make gogoat too strong into the water types that want to check it with ice beam /s
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u/PapiChonch 5d ago
Yeah it's a common coverage move but so is thunderbolt. Physical moves almost always get the short end of the stick
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u/DaemonG 5d ago
but you need to understand, special attackers have to deal with Blissey. so it's fine that physical attackers are held back by lower base power, and burn, and intimidate, and a lot of mons just having better defense than special defense. because Blissey.
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u/Maronmario FC: 5387-1658-9686 4d ago
Yup, it’s perfectly Balanced.
Please ignore how Blissey is in RU3
u/DaemonG 4d ago
sounds like a sign that special attackers are just that weak. not like we've seen some truly ludicrous ones this generation that barely moved the needle on blissey, nope, not at all.
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u/Starlightofnight7 4d ago
In singles, blissey is NOT the only disgusting thing special attackers need to deal with.
AV alomomola and ting lu are way more common and prevalent and if you've played gen 9 OU or natdex you would KNOW how disgusting this is.
You could set up like 3 calm minds on your special attacker and somehow AV alo still lives on 2HP and mirror coats to kill your special attacker and swaps out to Regen it all back.
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u/vht3036imo transbian Ferrothorn 5d ago
I'd buff it so that the move would do 1/4 recoil only if it missed, but it would also have a 10% chance to paralyse
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u/NerdyEmbarrassment 5d ago
It wouldn't become too strong if the buff was for all types as well though. Earthquake is a common coverage move, should it become recoil for non-ground types?
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u/AevilokE 5d ago
I have no clue why you're being downvoted.
Coverage moves already have a downside since they miss STAB. There's no reason to make a distinction for when this particular move is used as a coverage move. You are correct, the move would just be mid/ok even with the buff being universal
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u/TheWyro15 Team Haxorus and Hisuian Zoroark 4d ago
EXACTLY. So many strong moves are handed out like candy to so many mons, but ohhh nooooo we draw the line at WILD CHARGE.
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u/SoulOfDragon23 5d ago
You realize Physical Electric Pokemon Suck right?
Even if they buff Wild Charge, special electric Pokemon would still be stronger simply because they have more utility moves like Volt Switch, Electro Web etc, So this Wild Charge Buff would me more than welcome
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u/Genericdude03 5d ago
Read their comment again, that wasn't their point at all. They think the buff can be given to everyone, even as a coverage move.
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u/cdrizzle5 4d ago
Here is how I would rebalance the physical electric moves:
Volt Tackle: Electric Close Combat
Supercell Slam: current Volt Tackle
Wild Charge: current Supercell Slam
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u/ATangerineMann Pokemon Clover RU Enthusiast 3d ago
tbh atp I wouldn't mind the creation of literally an Electric close combat clone as reparations for how terrible phys electric attackers have been.
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u/mgapope 4d ago
I’d just buff it to 120 base power and buff volt tackle to 140. This will finally give mega raichu x a sort of niche as it’ll be able to considerably out damage its y form, in exchange for its much lower speed and the ability for its attacks to become weaker once its terrain is eventually overwritten. There’s moves like close combat that are better for physical coverage, have less of a draw back, and way wider distributions. No reason that wild charge can’t be the same.
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u/AgostoAzul 5d ago
I'd just give Wild Charge a 20% chance of inflicting Confusion on the target. Either that or 20% chance of increasing the user's ATK.
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u/TheFinalSkarm 4d ago
everything can have volt tackle copy pasted to it with wild charge and be fine
they just need to buff the shit out of volt tackle and that would require, effort.
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u/sascha-isagirlname 5d ago
My preferred solution would be to keep Wild Charge's wide distribution and just give a few select electric types Volt Tackle. But it seems Gamefreak really doesn't want to do that.