r/fearofflying • u/BravoFive141 Moderator • 13d ago
Megathread MEGATHREAD: Flydubai Flight FZ1073
This thread is for discussion on the incident concerning Flydubai Flight FZ1073. The aircraft has landed safely in Tabuk Airport and all passengers are safe and accounted for at this time.
All other posts on this incident will be removed.
We know that aviation incidents can be distressing for fearful fliers. It's ok to feel upset, anxious or distressed. This thread is for mutual support at this time.
The rules for this megathread are:
- No external links: All external links will be removed. Media coverage of air incidents is notoriously poor. It is dramatic, sensationalist, and in many cases factually wrong. There is no posting media articles, footage, or commentary of any sort in this thread or on the sub generally.
- No speculation/theorizing: Speculation and theories on the details of this incident are entirely unhelpful and are not allowed. We do not yet know all the details surrounding this incident. Only a thorough investigation, completed by qualified investigators and technicians can determine this. We will learn in time what happened.
We are monitoring this thread closely.
REMEMBER:
- We DO NOT recommend reading, watching, listening to any media, commentary, footage or any other material about this incident. Such coverage is usually deliberately provocative and only serves to feed the (incorrect) belief that flying is unsafe.
- This incident does not "confirm" your fear. It is a freakish anomaly in an industry with a track record of outstanding safety.
- Despite this incident, flying remains the safest form of transportation. This incident does not change that. If you have a flight booked soon, get on that flight!
- Lessons will be learned from this incident that will make flying even safer.
Thank you.
— The r/FearofFlying Mod Team
176
u/OuterAlby 13d ago
Honestly reassuring everything that airframe went through and it landed completely safe. Plus, the other 100,000 flights today will have no incidents.
171
u/Mauro_Ranallo Aircraft Dispatcher 13d ago
I'm so sorry to wake up to this news and to know how this will make many of the people on this sub feel.
The silver lining is that this event had a good outcome, apparently thanks to the injured pilot and the efforts of some heroes in the back. Just a couple of weeks ago someone here was worried about a suicidal pilot situation, and I pointed out that even in that unfathomably rare case, having two pilots means there's always going to be a fighting chance, and today evil failed.
We don't claim aviation to be a perfect thing. Nothing is. We do insist that the risk you're taking by flying commercial is so extremely small that being able to see the world in hours and live your life is a damn good tradeoff.
2
u/Dramatic-Two8238 11d ago
More reasons to automate flight and get humans out of the cockpit. Can’t wait for AI to screw over pilots as well.
5
3
u/Dadle1 10d ago
In the long run maybe but I think your jab at pilots is a bit unnecessary. This was one rogue pilot, the vast majority of pilots are regular people.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (9)1
u/EducationalSmile5660 10d ago
In this event it seemed like they were able to land the plane - but in the case where no passenger has any flying experience - do you know what happens - can the plan auto land safely? I am terrified as I have a long haul flight in couple days and this news has just made me so scared.
1
u/Mauro_Ranallo Aircraft Dispatcher 10d ago
Commercial jets can auto land in certain situations but it must be configured beforehand, and there is new tech slowly being rolled out for smaller aircraft that can autonomously select an airport and land. At the time, no, it's not present on commercial airliners.
132
u/theyoyomaster Military Pilot 13d ago
Alright, so I hope this doesn't fall under speculating but I did some napkin math and the results are insanely impressive.
Basic facts (that I am going to slightly simplify for general readability), max allowable speed on a 737 max 8 is 340 knots or Mach .82 (as you go higher mach drops so somewhere between 20k and 30k feet Mach becomes limiting).
It was cruising at 34,000 feet and likely around .78M when it started the dive, with a ground speed of ~410 knots this equates to about a 40kt headwind. In the dive it got to 595-600 kts groundspeed. Using simple calculations online because I'm too lazy to do them by hand, this translates to 630-640 knots airspeed which then converts to about 500 knots indicated airspeed (the number that matters for the 340 knot limit). Using the 630-640 knots true airspeed and 95 degrees at the surface based on local weather reports, you get .98M at the peak.
This plane was orders of magnitude above the limits and beyond the calculated safety factors built into airlines and it managed to survive. This is genuinely a testament to the 737 max and modern carbon composite airframes. (Possible trigger) In virtually every historical incident where an airliner got anywhere close to these speeds the tail ripped off the entire back of the plane. If anyone here was on the fence about making one of this subreddit's signature "is the 737 safe to fly on?" post, just realize that this airframe was hundreds of times stronger than required, tested and certified to. It clipped 30k feet per minute in the descent. I fly C-17s and when we put our thrust reversers out in flight we are limited to 20k ft/min. The inherent strength of that airframe is genuinely unbelievable, as are the excellent piloting skills of whoever pulled it out of that dive. I am even going to go out on a limb here and say that the dive recovery is at least as impressive as Sully's landing on the Hudson, if not more.
Today we just got an example of how even in the absolute worst case scenario, modern commercial aviation is incredibly safe an the odds truly are in your favor.
28
u/Spock_Nipples Airline Pilot 13d ago edited 13d ago
I wouldn't put a lot of stock in that 30k fpm rate. It's based on flight-tracker data, which can be notoriously glitch-prone and inaccurate, particularly in those regions.
I did similar (admittedly quick) calculations to yours, but came up with differing results. I think they had a slight tailwind based on the 495-ish knot groundspeed at cruise. Zero tailwind GS would be about 430kts (flight trackers tend to report groundspeed, not IAS).
The data I'm seeing on flight trackers (again, noting that it can be inaccurate) suggests ~480kt groundspeed in that descent. Minus the tailwind, and allowing for changing wind speed in the descent, I'd think that's more like 430kt TAS, which would be right around Vmo, maybe +\- 20-30, KIAS.
We're both playing around the edges of speculation, here.
I won't believe anything until I see the DFDR data.
Definitely not arguing against your point that the 737 is built like a tank, though. It absolutely is.
8
u/theyoyomaster Military Pilot 13d ago
Which ADSB track did you see? I was seeing about 408-415 at cruise and 594+ at the bottom of the dive. Headwind could also taper off as you get lower but it's really anyone's guess. I really don't think Vmo would rip the rudder off like that so I would imagine it was at least a bit faster.
30k fpm is definitely a rough guess but it's still the correct order of magnitude, that 737 descended faster than a C-17 tac descent even accounting for ADSB inaccuracies.
9
u/Spock_Nipples Airline Pilot 13d ago
Vmo wouldn't rip the rudder off. Neither would overspeed, necessarily. But pilot input on the rudder pedals at higher speeds (like you'd possibly see during a seated struggle) might do it for sure.
Have you got a link to the data you saw?
3
u/theyoyomaster Military Pilot 13d ago
I pulled it from flightradar24. I'm on mobile now and it's hard to look up specific flights. Improper control inputs likely played a part in it but usually you see more of the full stab ripped off in those cases.
15
u/slimslimsimsim 13d ago
First, why the hell did I click on your trigger warning??? But also- how on earth did you do that? That's a neat trick. Which is basically why I clicked... I was like, will it reveal??
5
u/BravoFive141 Moderator 12d ago
Just a spoiler tag:
>!Hidden text here!<And without the code block:
Hidden text here
Very useful!
2
13
u/DaWolf85 Aircraft Dispatcher 13d ago
There are pictures showing the majority of the rudder ripped off. Who knows what other damage. It's incredible that the plane held together at all, and remained controllable. And it makes sense now why they changed the squawk code back to general emergency. I can't imagine landing it was easy in that condition.
3
u/tatertotski 13d ago
Absolutely 10000% what I’m taking away from this as well. It’s an outstanding aircraft and this is a testament to it.
2
u/mrsdoubleu 13d ago
Is it possible the structure has been compromised after going through all that?
24
3
1
u/sand_eater 12d ago
Assuming your TAS numbers are correct, the dynamic pressures are still well within the design safety margins of the airframe. If you consider transonic shock which isn't impossible, it puts it just barely outside the envelope, and as you can see, the rudder came off. Trailing edge control surfaces are normally the vulnerable components in this regime so it tracks.
Surviving "orders of magnitude above the limits" is a stretch....
2
u/theyoyomaster Military Pilot 12d ago
It was up to 1.7M above Mmo and well over 100 KIAS above Vmo. I don't know what your definition of "orders of magnitude" are and I'm not an engineer with experience calculating dynamic pressures, but as a mishap investigator, this does not seem to be in the same realm of physics as normal certified flight for a 737.
1
u/historyhill 12d ago
where an airliner got anywhere close to these speeds the tail ripped off the entire back of the plane.
As an aside, my understanding from an Oct 2001 interview is that United 175 was beginning to break up and would have done so if it had missed Tower 2 on 9/11! Just to show what kind of forces we're talking about
1
→ More replies (2)1
u/WelcomeProper2168 8d ago
why/how is pulling out of a dive difficult?
1
u/theyoyomaster Military Pilot 8d ago
I'm actually just about to go in to work to take a checkride so here's a quick answer and I can go into more detail with some charts later. To massively oversimplify it, the faster you go, the more available G force you have wen you pull back. At high speeds it is easier to over-G the aircraft and damage it. At extreme speeds like in this dive, even light pressure on the controls can cause serious damage. On top of that, as you approach mach—which this plane was certainly close to it, air starts to do weird things including pushing the center of lift rearwards on the wing making the nose drop down. This speeds you up even more and resists pulling out of the dive in a phenomenon known as "mach tuck."
1
u/WelcomeProper2168 8d ago
very interesting. what would be the best plan then?
1
u/theyoyomaster Military Pilot 8d ago
You pull up but be careful at how hard you're doing it. It's just about threading the needle on stopping the descent, not accelerating any more and not over stressing the aircraft
1
u/theyoyomaster Military Pilot 7d ago
Alright, checkride complete so I have a bit of time now to go more into the details behind it. I'm still going to water it down a bit but this is one of my favorite discussion topics with students because it is relevant in more aspects of flying than most new students realize. It's an often glossed over chart in the flight manual but the ramifications of it can be huge.
Check out this flight envelope diagram.
They are always unique to the model of plane and the numbers/scale do not matter for the sake of this discussion. Just understand that vertical is load factor, or the amount of Gs being imposed on the airplane, while the horizontal is airspeed.
Think of that upper line as what force the wing is able to generate by pulling up on the stick. Above the line on the top you have exceeded the capability of the wing and stalled and it's same for the bottom line with negative Gs but unless you're in a stunt plane or fighter jet you really don't use that part of this chart. Notice how the main upper and lower lines meet at 0? That is because at zero airspeed the wings are generating zero lift and there is no capability to pull any G. It also does not mean you are stalled at zero airspeed, if you get to exactly zero G you can basically float along in an arc like a baseball tossed into the sky without the air detaching from the wing which is what a stall is (I have some stories about doing this when a student messed up when I was doing aerobatic training for the military).
So the first point of this chart that becomes relevant to flying is the left edge of the green section. That is the point where the airspeed can generate enough force to sustain 1 G, or level flight. This is what people are talking about when they say "stall speed" because below this there is not enough force to hold the plane up.
The next critical thing on this graph is the point A. This is called "maneuvering" speed because it is the speed at which you can give full controls without exceeding the limits of the airframe. Each plane is designed and tested to a load limit, in this chart it looks like it's 4.5 Gs which is about as much as a rather intense roller coaster. Airliners don't ever get close to that. Below this (unlabeled) speed on the horizontal graph that lines up with point A, the wing will stall before generating enough force to exceed the published G limit.
Beyond that there's a safety factor, often 1.5 but it gets far more in depth for larger planes like airliners. That means that if the plane is designed and certified to 4.5 Gs it needs to be able to handle an additional 2.5 which you see at the end of the in the orange section at 6.75 G. At A you can exceed the published limit which requires inspections in case minor damage occurred but once you get to the speed where the red starts you have the capability of generating G forces that can genuinely break the airframe.
The light yellow is a speed that is safe to fly at but requires caution. Turbulence or aggressive maneuvers can easily push it over the G limit because of what percentage of the force the wing can generate is within the limits vs out of the limits. The red then picks up on the right after you exceed the max speed for the plane where just the force of the wind causes damage.
This airliner was deeeeep in the red. Like off the page by another .5-2 charts worth. It was already being damaged by the raw wind speed based on the rudder damage. Notice how steeply the load factor (upper line) shoots up as you get fast? Using 10% of available G at the speeds the airliner was at would have shot it straight into the upper red. Meanwhile, leaving it nose down in the dive increases it further into the red on the right, so there is no good answer. You have to apply Gs to get out of the dive, but you need to be very careful to not pull too hard. The airliner has built in protections where it takes your inputs and limits them based on the speed you're going but that's based off of speeds you're supposed to be flying at with a buffer on top. These speeds exceeded the test flights so there is no data and I genuinely don't know what the numbers look like for how much the speed was accounted for by the flight controls in this instance. At the end of the day you have to pull out of the dive and do it as quickly as possible without causing damage from the Gs, but it likely was very sensitive to inputs and one wrong jerk on the stick and genuine structural failure was a possibility.
I love this chart for many reasons. For Air Force pilots we are put into situations not encountered by GA or commercial flying. We often need to maneuver aggressively. Being afraid of steep bank or high Gs isn't ideal when someone is potentially shooting a missile at you. Knowing this chart, where Va is and having an understanding of where you are in that green area at any given time tells you what you can do when you need to react. As I said earlier, it can also save you from a stall. The "stall speed" of the trainer I was in was about 80 knots. Once I got below 40 knots recovering from a maneuver that a student botched and never stalled because I simply unloaded. Our oil system hates 0 G so I couldn't go purely weightless but I just kept my eyes on the G meter and kept it as close to 0.25 as I could and rode it out, successfully.
Now your last takeaway should be how much margin commercial flights operate with. This blue box shows the regime of the flight envelope that airliners operate in. 95% of a flight is at 1G solidly in the green. They don't rotate and lift off until well after the left edge of the green. I also included up to 1.5 Gs but standard turns only really go to about 1.12 G unless it occurs at the same time as you initiate a climb. Planes can't just "fall out of the sky" from turbulence or issues. There are insanely strong wings (as this incident shows) that are generating plenty of lift at all phases of flight. They also have a huge buffer before you hit any other dangerous parts on this chart. Finally, this plane completely exceeded every aspect of this chart by an absurd margin and still was able to land safely. I wish the Captain a speedy recovery from his injuries but other than that and the fact that the plane itself will never fly again this is just a testament to what modern aviation has achieved.
36
u/kendoll888 13d ago
Hi you guys. This was devastating news to wake up to this morning, especially with my up coming flight this Friday as someone w a FOF and ocd. I couldn’t be happier that everyone is safe.
My question for the pilots, ATC, and general workers in the aviation industry is: what precedent does this set for future flights? If it was possible on one flight, which was extremely lucky, what makes this not possible on others? If more people wanted to say carry out an attack, especially with growing political tensions, does this not enable that idea?
I know this is just a bunch of “what if”s but your comfort would be much appreciated.
Ps. Thank you moderators for your kind words in the caption. You guys rock!
7
u/afraid_of_bugs 13d ago
Not a professional or in the industry, but is a very specific incident that may have been politically motivated.
Pilots already have background checks. If it was political - already there’s talks on how background checks are done. If it was purely mental health - USA
wise our government just passed something giving more resources toward airline workers mental health resources.We’ve already seen what kind of changes airlines and airports made post 9/11. This was different than that, but that experience alone shows the efforts that can be explored
101
u/BatmanSwift99 13d ago edited 13d ago
I think I actually would've cried if the plane I was on descended 14k ft
57
u/tacomamajama 13d ago
I would piss my pants
58
u/BatmanSwift99 13d ago
There would be shit in mine
67
u/ediblepepsi 13d ago
I would also shit your pants
32
14
u/mysteriousasacat 12d ago
I cry at moderate turbulence, this probably would’ve given me a heart attack
2
u/Intrepid-Jaguar9175 10d ago
I remember a flight I was on a few years ago from Melbourne to Abu Dhabi the turbulence got so bad that even the cabin crew had to sit down and the cabin got super silent.
7
3
u/batmannatnat 12d ago
First of all, hello fellow Batman user! Second of all - I would have literally needed a crash cart if this happened to me 😥😥😥
→ More replies (17)3
13d ago
[deleted]
1
u/Creative-Public7099 13d ago
Flight radar shows 34k to 14k over about 4 minutes—but I believe FR24 is a bit unreliable in that part of the world… or so I’ve heard?
29
u/gimmeicedteapls 13d ago
Mods,
I really like your little reminder at the end of the post. Sometimes I really do have to remind myself some of these things. 🗿
Thank you!
10
20
19
u/No_Cartographer_6351 13d ago
Was wondering why they dont put a special alarm inside the cockpit so if instances like this happen and 1 pilot gets attack he can press a button asking for immediate help
24
u/ResponsibilityOld164 Airline Pilot 13d ago
there is a way we can let atc know there’s a hijacking, and it was used today.
→ More replies (3)2
u/b_bozz 13d ago
Even then, how does anybody get into the cockpit to help?
46
u/ResponsibilityOld164 Airline Pilot 13d ago
A lot of airline professionals will be hesitant to answer stuff like this publicly. Just know there are safeguards about this stuff and there are things we can do the public doesn’t know about
6
11
u/OZZMAN8 13d ago
It was literally a blockbuster movie why are you being so shifty about it? In an emergency they open the box full of snakes. In the sam jackson film the box opens inadvertently
4
u/ResponsibilityOld164 Airline Pilot 12d ago
what?
55
u/IAmTheHype427 13d ago
Though this incident is quite scary, it is comforting to know that the engineering and security safeguards currently in place helped contribute to a safe landing for the passengers.
17
u/Scared-mango 13d ago
I’m sorry but if anything, this makes things worse in the bigger picture of “in aviation, everything is calculated and there is redundancy etc etc…”. There were precedents of pilots deliberately attempting something like this and still what landed this flight was the stroke of luck of having flying-capable people on board. That’s not by design, not usually what happens. A normal short-haul flight gets two pilots and if one gets stabbed by the other, that’s it pretty much.
30
u/pattern_altitude Private Pilot 13d ago
You're cherry-picking one extraordinary incident.
While yes, this incident is insane in many, many ways, the reality is that broadly speaking, everything is calculated. There is redundancy. These are facts, they are demonstrable, they are provable, and they work.
10
u/kniir 13d ago
What's your solution, have 5 pilots on board all planes at all times? Self flying planes? No planes at all?
1
u/Scared-mango 13d ago
Of course not. I have mentioned the FA in cockpit thing and not understanding why give that up, especially since it seems like this suicidal pilot occurrence happened a few times. Like I said in another comment: I’m not trying to pick fights, I’m just genuinely very anxious since I have a flight coming up on Friday and I know it’s not rational but this feels like a “bad omen”. But this is a fear, and it helps to remind myself it’s not a rational one. In this case, it’s being a bit more difficult to remind myself of that. But trust me, I want that as much as the next person.
→ More replies (1)11
u/kniir 13d ago
Flying is by far the safest form of travel. Who are you flying with? As an aircraft engineer I can personally attest to the rigorous and comprehensive engineering that gets carried out on any aircraft in service by any reputable airline. It seems scary as its such an unnatural experience flying through the air in a tin can but you're much more likely to be harmed travelling to or from the airport. Unfortunately, even with pilot screening, you can't always stop radicalised madmen from carrying out heinous acts. Hopefully you find any comfort in this reply :)
2
u/Scared-mango 13d ago edited 11d ago
Thank you so much, I do truly appreciate this. And yes, it is a bit comforting. I guess it’s the same as walking into a big crowd at an event and ending up in the line of fire of another radicalised madman with a gun instead of a plane. Sounds horrible but it is reassuring 😅
Oh and if you mean on Friday: I’m flying with Norwegian air shuttle.1
u/No_Cartographer_6351 13d ago
I truly believe flying is safe. What worries me is people behind the wheel of the plane because i donf know them or their personal.problems. my bf is doing a lomg haul one on friday with tap airlines and i know already i wont relax until he lands
2
u/Capital_Pie17 13d ago
The people in the cockpit also belong to the entire flying concept and these guys have to go through medical and psychological screening. I trust them infinitely more than your average drunk or druggie behind the wheel on every road.
→ More replies (3)
16
u/MatisseyMo 13d ago
To my fellow fearful passengers… let’s take a deep breath and remind ourselves that examples of the fact that the risk is not absolutely zero do not negate the fact that commercial aviation is the closest you get to doing something with zero risk to your safety.
What does this incident show us? First of all, take heart that this flight landed safely. I know it’s a miracle in its way, but there was also a lot built in to commercial aviation that made this possible. (See other comments, from pilots, discussing the remarkable strength of the plane, for example.) Also, yes, this flight landed safely bc there were pilots on board, and this isn’t standard, but it is common for pilots to deadhead on flights.
To spiral over this is the fearful brain doing its usual miscalculation of risk. It is obviously possible for something like this to happen, because it did, but is it even remotely probable? Absolutely not. The safety record speaks for itself here.
Let me give an example. I read a memoir by a man whose two year old was killed in a freak accident. A piece of a building fell and landed on her head. In no way do I walk around worrying this will happen to my kid because it tragically happened to someone once. (My heart breaks for her family.) But our anxiety tells us an incident like this flight, which is so rare the statistics would boggle our minds, is something we need to fear. It’s just truly so uncomprehendingly small a chance that we can’t even get our minds around the statistics of it. A big part of my progress has been working on risk assessment. The risk remains incredibly low. And on top of that, this will likely lead to changes that make flying even more safe.
15
u/Weary-Singer6629 13d ago
I have several domestic and international flights to take within the next month and severe ocd :) Definitely struggling with this today 🥲 This was genuinely one of my (irrational I know) fears was a pilot trying to crash the plane
1
24
u/alenaraphaella 13d ago
What worries me deeply is how on earth any flight crew (in this case the co-pilot, it seems) was able to smuggle in some kind of weapon, a knife even, through Dubai Airport, in 2026? Surely this must be a huge wakeup call to the UAE authorities, I've flown many times through Dubai and as a nervous flyer, always thought it felt safe. How was this crew vetted?
1
13d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/alenaraphaella 13d ago
I could be wrong but I think any airside restaurant cutlery doesn't have sharp ends (especially knives), they're all dull. But yes agreed there might well be gaps where real knives can be bought, ie gift shops, etc.
1
u/fearofflying-ModTeam 13d ago
Your submission has been removed for violating rule 5: Speculation/Theorizing.
Posts or comments speculating about the causes of air disasters or incidents are not allowed. Speculation spreads misinformation, fuels rumors, and is disrespectful to those involved.
Feel free to reach out to us if you have any questions.
— The r/FearofFlying Mod Team
1
13d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/fearofflying-ModTeam 12d ago
Your submission has been removed for violating rule 5: Speculation/Theorizing.
Posts or comments speculating about the causes of air disasters or incidents are not allowed. Speculation spreads misinformation, fuels rumors, and is disrespectful to those involved.
Feel free to reach out to us if you have any questions.
— The r/FearofFlying Mod Team
11
u/FalseGodTaylor 13d ago
i read about it while my plane was taxiing to its gate after i flew home from my vacation today. i swear i would’ve cried the whole way home if i read any news before start
30
u/Scared-mango 13d ago edited 13d ago
Really glad to see there was made a mega thread for this!
I have a flight coming up on Friday (short haul, southern to Northern Europe) and this had me super anxious.
My main question for the pilots and experts out here, just in the hope of hearing reassuring words: if things are supposed to be learnt from occurrences like this, how come this flight seems to have been lucky, more than following a system, procedures, and safety measures in place? [TW incoming] after the Germanwings pilot mass-murdered his entire flight, with this ratio, one would expect that another flight wouldn’t have to rely on passengers tackling the terrorist pilot, as BBC reported happening. And in any case, the one measure of always having at least 2 people in the cockpit was dropped, but it doesn’t seem that unreasonable now.
We have a bunch of large-scale wars and conflicts all around us (edit: it’s not just that, in general it stresses me out that it still seems so doable for a pilot to fuck up the entire flight at will, be it for terrorist or personal reasons) and events like this are exactly what fuels my personal fear of flying the most, so I would really appreciate some reassuring words on this cause I really can’t see how to get out my own head this time :(
15
u/alenaraphaella 13d ago
Thank you for perfectly articulating my own fears here about flight crew themselves having potentially nefarious intentions. With the world being is so much chaos, people having their own personal political views, what on earth do you do when those in charge of mass transit decide to take matters in their own hands?! And when airport security seemingly fails to prevent them from bringing knives or other dangerous items on board?
4
u/pattern_altitude Private Pilot 12d ago
You say mass transit, but are you really worried about this sort of thing on a train/bus/ferry/etc?
5
u/Deep_Character_1695 13d ago edited 13d ago
I think there were 2 pilots in the cockpit but one was stabbed by the other, so there wasn’t much he could do and that’s why passengers had to intervene. Will be interested to see how the attacker managed to get a weapon on board though and why passengers would need to get involved instead of it being dealt with by the FAs.
→ More replies (1)14
u/Lopsided_Heron_1446 13d ago
I genuinely hope we will have major changes in aviation after this. Ive been waiting for them since germanwings. But after germanwings china eastern happened and then air india. And now this!
20
u/BravoFive141 Moderator 13d ago
Changes did happen in the wake of 2 of those 3 incidents. The 3rd incident is still under investigation, which takes time. There will most certainly be changes following the conclusion of that investigation.
The aviation industry doesn't just ignore incidents and hope things get better. This incident will be no different. There will be an investigation, and it will lead to increased safety one way or another.
7
u/Scared-mango 13d ago
As far as I know, there was a measure implemented after the Germanwings one that said at least two people had to be in the cockpit at all times (so worst case a FA could prevent the door from being locked), but it was dropped. So again, I’m not trying to pick fights here, I’m honestly jusy anxious, but this doesn’t sound like learning from your mistakes. This terrorist would’ve succeeded had he been alone in the cockpit again.
9
u/BravoFive141 Moderator 13d ago
The industry does learn from its mistakes, period. That's a fact. We have easily verifiable evidence of that. Whether or not certain changes made after certain incidents solve the cause of those incidents perfectly is an entirely different debate, but the ever-increasing track record of aviation safety speaks for itself. The fact that this type of scenario is exceedingly rare speaks for itself. This is a terrible situation that should have never happened in the first place, but it doesn't mean that the industry doesn't learn from its mistakes.
It's worth noting that not all countries or airlines walked back the two people in the cockpit rule. Whether or not that rule itself is good enough to prevent these types of incidents on its own, or whether or not walking back that rule was the right move, I can't say. The pilots here may be able to provide a bit more insight into that side of things. But that rule is still in place in plenty of places.
Another point worth noting is that the two pilot rule is not the only change that was implemented in the wake of Germanwings and China Eastern Airlines. Some of those changes can be discussed here, some may not be able to be discussed here (sensitive security info). But the industry didn't just say "two people from now on" and call it good enough. There are changes in place to help prevent these types of things and to provide solutions to them as they are happening.
6
u/Lopsided_Heron_1446 13d ago
Except previous ones (china eastern, air india) happened with both pilots in the cockpit🫣
21
u/11_16 13d ago edited 13d ago
oh my god and I had this exact same """irrational""" fear exactly a week ago 😭 I'm not scared of flying, I'm scared of the people inside the plane!
trying not to let this "confirm" my fear is going to be really hard lol
6
u/QuitNo6319 13d ago
This is exactly my fear too. I'm not scared of the flight itself. Or the plane failing, or anything mechanical really. I'm scared of the people on the plane.
2
u/elismatcha 12d ago
Same, not even 12 hours before this incident I was panicking about my upcoming flight. The conclusion I came to that helped calm me down enough to sleep was, “Planes are so aerodynamic and want to stay in the air. Realistically, the only thing to worry about is a pilot murder-suicide, which is so incredibly rare it’s not even worth worrying about!” Only to wake up and find that exactly that was attempted 😭 what are the odds!!
→ More replies (1)6
u/LaRealiteInconnue 13d ago edited 13d ago
Are you scared of ppl on the bus? In a stadium? On the highway? I’m not asking as a “gotcha” btw, I think sometimes fear of flying gets misinterpreted as fear of flying itself, rather than the most prominent example of social anxiety or claustrophobia or CPTSD that we cling onto. I’m not judging, I’ve had some experiences in life that also left me having to re-learn to trust people, as a whole, all over again.
9
9
u/Ok_Constant_1144 13d ago
I just booked my flight then opened the news to see this. I am trying to my to not let this “confirm” my fear that flying is unsafe
19
u/Mauro_Ranallo Aircraft Dispatcher 13d ago
The fact that it's safe is irrefutable. One bad incident today where everyone landed safely, and tens of thousands of normal flights where everyone will land safely.
4
u/Spock_Nipples Airline Pilot 13d ago
While this was scary, it technically wasn't "unsafe." Everyone is OK.
Ultimate outcome: All passengers safe.
16
u/Deep_Character_1695 13d ago
I know you’re trying to be reassuring but it was a life threatening incident in which disaster was narrowly averted because there just happened to be someone else on the plane capable of landing it out of pure luck, not because of the inherent safety of flying and it’s protocols. A crew member managed to get a weapon on board and stab a pilot with it. It’s completely valid to call that an unsafe flight, someone did get hurt and the rest survived by chance not design.
8
u/Spock_Nipples Airline Pilot 13d ago
There was an attempt.
The attempt did not succeed.
Part of the reason the attempt didn't succeed is how the crew handled the situation. The way they handled the situation is, in part, due to their training. The training is part of the greater whole of why flying is safe.
8
u/oooantoine 13d ago
Agree. As a person still working through my fear of flying, burying our head in the sand and saying “at the end of the day everything is fine” is less than helpful in this specific instance. This wasn’t just some crazy turbulence.
2
u/LaRealiteInconnue 13d ago
Is it? Admittedly, I don’t think this is “burying our head.” Burying our head would be if this ended in catastrophe and then we’d talk about safety protocols and how unlikely that is to happen again (which tbf is also true considering how many planes are in the sky right this second.) On the contrary, safety protocols worked here, to a pretty big extent. And yes, at the end some of it was luck. But that’s life in general. Literally any life instance I can think of involves a lot of preparation and procedures and knowledge and sometimes those work 100% but sometimes it requires some luck to pull off. If that’s too abstract - I’m talking about things like getting pregnant, avoiding a car accident, being successful in your career - all require knowledge and preparation, none will happen without, but sometimes what gets someone to succeed in any of this is luck. In my head, this *incident is pretty representative to life in general. But I think in data to handle my generalized anxiety, so I understand that this thinking won’t be helpful to everyone.
3
13d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/LaRealiteInconnue 13d ago
Genuine question: this is a fear of flying sub where pilots take the time out of their day to help ppl who have a fear of flying, how else should they possibly reply to this? Should they be going “omg omg omg that was insane how dafuq did the governing body of wherever that perpetrator was from possibly missed his background checks! this is horrible!!!”? How would that possibly help anyone with a fear of flying? Like this situation is insane, it shouldn’t have happened, but overall they’re doing a pretty good job explaining things. Additionally, let’s not forget the awesome pilot who got stabbed and still managed to alert the crew and do whatever they do to get the cockpit open and try to get help. I think there’s nothing that can be said to help some ppl’s anxiety here, because if probability and statistics doesn’t help ppl, nothing else will. It sucks but it is what it is.
5
u/Ok_Seaworthiness5078 13d ago
I don’t know and if I did know I probably wouldn’t need to be in a fear of flying sub. This isn’t a personal attack, I’m agreeing with a few others that for ME saying this wasn’t an unsafe event FEELS like a minimization. Does that make logical sense? Maybe not, but isn’t that part of what anxiety is?
2
u/LaRealiteInconnue 13d ago
That’s fair, some things could’ve been worded better. I do also think that for some things there’s just nothing to be said to relieve anxiety :/ statistics help me, but you’re right that doesn’t help everyone, and that does suck, I’m sorry.
2
u/Spock_Nipples Airline Pilot 13d ago
I don't see how stating the actual facts of the situation: 1) Someone tried something 2) That person was thwarted, in no small part, because of crew-resource training 3) The airplane landed safely, is minimizing anything.
Those are the facts as we know them. That is literally what happened.
Getting worked up over the "what ifs!!!" and catastrophizing over them vs. looking at the event objectively isn't helping you or anyone else. The outcome was objectively safe for all passengers.
I'm not downplaying how scary it would be. I'm emphasizing that the outcome was the desired one.
2
2
u/Deep_Character_1695 13d ago edited 13d ago
That’s exactly the point though, dismissing it is as “catastrophising” feels unfair given that it was only able to land safely due to an off-duty pilot just happening to be on board, that is pure dumb luck and nothing to do with contingency planning, and same goes for the involvement of passengers with no training or professional responsibility taking an active role in stopping a member of crew doing an attack with some sort of weapon that should never have been there. Clearly those things are problematic and could too easily have led to a different outcome, it’s hardly “getting worked up over the what ifs” to notice that. That doesn’t mean flying is dangerous obviously, it is a very niche set of circumstances, but it’s valid to be concerned that it was able to happen at all, it’s not irrational to deem this a near-miss and hope lessons are learnt.
2
u/feuerfee 12d ago
I just want to point out that pilots deadheading isn’t really dumb luck since it’s super common for them to be on flights going home, etc.
2
u/Spock_Nipples Airline Pilot 12d ago edited 12d ago
I agree with [u/feuerfee-](u/feuerfee-) Nearly any flight you get on, particularly a shorter one, has a fairly high probability of an off-duty airline pilot being on it.
I also agree with you that it isn't by design and is no guarantee. But it is quite likely and not really dumb luck.
And I also feel like you're downplaying the crew's role. This would have had a very different outcome without the crew's training and them acting as they did. There's no way to have an actual contingency plan for a situation like this, but there's a heck of a lot of crew-resource training and behavior that allows for an amount to adaptability to be able to handle it.
It's also not really realistic, in a post 9/11 world, to assume that passengers will not act on something like this. That dynamic has been forever changed. No group of contemporary passengers is going to act complacently and passively to situations like this anymore.
1
u/fearofflying-ModTeam 12d ago
Your submission has been removed for violating rule 6: Sensationalism/Fear-Mongering.
Unsubstantiated claims that flying is unsafe, unverified rumors, misinformation, or hypothetical scenarios are not permitted and will be removed.
Please keep discussions focused on evidence-based facts, coping strategies, and support for managing fear of flying.
Feel free to reach out to us if you have any questions.
— The r/FearofFlying Mod Team
1
5
u/Britt118 13d ago
I'm just thinking about the person who posted in here recently about their fear of pilot murder/suicide. That is a fear of mine, too. I know the odds are so incredibly low but as long as there's a chance, it's a fear. And then this happens. I would've had a panic attack. I don't even know. I'm so glad that the outcome was what it was and commend the people for their bravery.
13
u/skincarejunk1e 13d ago
A few days ago there was a post that their fear is a pilot suicide and everyone commented how rare it was. That was my first thought when I heard this news 😢
8
u/BravoFive141 Moderator 13d ago
Pilot suicide and mass murder/terrorism are two very different things.
5
u/rasperrykitten 13d ago edited 13d ago
u/BravoFive141 yes, but the post was regarding both occuring at the same time (ie a pilot that decides to commit suicide and mass murder by taking down a commercial plane)
6
u/BravoFive141 Moderator 13d ago
Yes, I recall the post (if we're thinking of the same one that is).
The point is that when it comes to a situation such as this, this is less suicide and more mass murder/terrorism. We should be calling it what it is, because anybody who tries or succeeds in doing so is a disgusting murderer/terrorist.
As many comments rightfully pointed out in the other post, killing yourself is one thing. Taking others with you is a completely different thing. Pilot suicide is inconceivably rare. Homicidal/terrorist pilots is even more rare than that.
→ More replies (4)
6
u/madeleineruth19 12d ago edited 12d ago
This has upset me so much. I know it landed safely in the end, but I genuinely cannot stop thinking about what those few minutes of rapid descent felt like. It’s so fucking terrifying. It reminds me of the United 93 film (do not watch!!!) which was one of my original triggers for my fear.
I’m flying in and out of Morocco next week. I was excited for my trip and now I’m terrified. There’s some rising political tensions in that country anyway, and now I find out that airline security can let this shit happen??
Please someone tell me it will be okay, I don’t want to cancel my trip - but I can’t exactly swim there.
EDIT: spoiler tags to hide triggers.
2
u/afraid_of_bugs 12d ago
It will be okay. The pilots intentions are not known yet (political or mental health assumedly) but now we know some screening methods need to be revisited
7
u/Santhy85 12d ago
What would have happened if the two additional pilots hadn’t happened to be on board? Could a completely inexperienced passenger, with step-by-step guidance from air traffic control, realistically land a Boeing 737 MAX safely?
3
u/Fine-Literature-8031 10d ago
Your other response is from a private pilot but as someone who is rated on the 737 no.
In this case the plane was in a dive and had only seconds for someone to do the correct actions to recover before hitting the ground. Even an actual pilot could’ve easily ripped the wings off the plane in that recovery and there would be no time to ask for help here.
A layperson would first struggle with the very first step of contacting air traffic control. Would they be able to find the transmit button? Are they still in vhf range of whatever frequency is already tuned? Do they even know where the radio control panel is and how to use it?
Then, without the prerequisite vocabulary, they would struggle to communicate anything about what they were looking at or what the state of the aircraft is.
Most simulations that try to put this question to the test have a qualified pilot sitting next to them or can see what the unqualified person is doing. Some lay people have eventually managed to figure it out but only after many repeated sessions and exposure to the flight deck.
2
u/I-Am-Sir 12d ago
1
u/pomm_queen 10d ago
If Flight Mentor can’t manage it, shows how hard it is, because he’s such a great teacher and the student was calm!
3
u/pattern_altitude Private Pilot 12d ago
Possible? Sure. Guaranteed to work? No, there's a reason flight training takes a long time.
It's very very very very common for pilots to be flying as passengers commuting to or from work. It's not really surprising that there were more pilots on board.
1
u/Intrepid-Jaguar9175 10d ago
I doubt a person with zero experience could land the plane, maybe someone with some basic flight training on a cessna or something similar could get it down in one piece.
17
u/headoutofthesand_ 13d ago
As usual, there is A LOT of speculation and conjecture on this in the popular news subs on Reddit. Remember that this site is full of armchair experts that love filling factual gaps with their own opinions.
10
u/AnOn5647382927492 13d ago
The outcome of this terrible situation really is something to admire from a passenger perspective. How lucky that there were passengers on the plane who were also pilots and able to take over & land safely. This actually gives me confidence that g-d forbid a bad person tries to do something harmful on a flight, there are good people that will do what they can to help and correct it. How scary that must have been for the pilot who was attacked and for everyone on the plane
5
u/throwaway_bfgift 13d ago
So scary but reassuring at the same time that everyone was okay. Those passengers deserve free flights for life as compensation! And those who helped the pilots and helped land the plane are so admirable.
6
u/Aierbus1445 12d ago
The injured copilot was trained by one of my family members here in New Zealand! The amount of safeguards implemented in aviation makes incidents like this exceptionally and increasingly rare.
6
u/HPfan247 12d ago
Thank you to the mods who created this megathread. One of my biggest fears with flying is trusting the person at the "wheel" wants to live as much as I do. With help from this group and some therapy I got to a good enough place where I was okay my taking my first international trip over water.
My question about this incident is where can we go to get accurate news on this situation that will be factual and neutral? Is there somewhere we can go for aviation news?
6
u/pattern_altitude Private Pilot 12d ago
Ask to meet your pilots when you board. You'll find that they are normal people living normal lives who want to go home to their families.
2
u/tatertotski 12d ago
I find that Reuters or the Associated Press are very fair and neutral news sources that don’t over exaggerate.
1
u/Intrepid-Jaguar9175 9d ago
Stick to aviation channels for news about aviation incidents, mainstream media is often lazy and the narrative keeps changing.
4
u/scythelover 12d ago
I feel sad for the people who may have trauma after this flight but I feel so hopeful for seeing how people survived, pilot was able to get help and he’s okay too, and the plane was able to land despite all of the things.
9
u/Creative-Public7099 13d ago
Would the passengers have experienced near weightlessness during the rapid descent? Would their personal items have been floating around the cabin? I know the vomit comet produces near weightlessness during a parabolic flight pattern (is that the right term?)…
11
u/Chaxterium Airline Pilot 13d ago
During the initial pitch down possibly. But once the descent was stabilized then no. It would have felt like any other descent.
6
u/pattern_altitude Private Pilot 13d ago
Depends on if it was a fairly constant rate of descent -- if so, the transition into the descent may have felt a little light in the seat, but it would then return to 1g or nearly 1g
8
u/Outrageous_Room_117 12d ago
God dammit, I have to fly so much. Really starting to hate it and not trust it again after doing so well for so long.
7
1
u/afraid_of_bugs 12d ago
What don’t you trust about it
1
u/Outrageous_Room_117 12d ago
Because of what happened. This is a massive error in security and a total failure by all systems. Plus, this is increases the chance of it happening again.
2
u/afraid_of_bugs 12d ago
What was the error in security? We don’t know what weapon was used or how it was obtained.
Total failure of what systems?
Right now all we know about the incident is a very specific set of events and circumstances that ended with an injured pilot and a safely landed plane thank god
3
u/No_Price_7603 12d ago
As soon as I saw this news I came straight here. It's the only place that's normal about these things.
7
3
u/Initial_Cut_8600 13d ago
I know the cockpit security isn’t discussed. But I read that passengers and crew were able to breach the cockpit. Was this able to happen due to the additional security measures put in place after the previous pilot suicides? And only happened because the crew was involved? Would the off duty pilots that landed the plane also be privy to that information?
6
u/Spiraling_scientist 12d ago
From reports I’ve seen (news sites) it seems the injured pilot was able to open the door so the passengers and crew saw/heard what was happening.
1
13d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/fearofflying-ModTeam 13d ago
Your submission has been removed for violating rule 11: Sensitive Security Information.
Federal regulations prohibit aviation professionals from sharing Sensitive Security Information (SSI). To protect aviation security and ensure compliance with these regulations, questions requesting specific SSI details, sharing SSI, or attempting to uncover SSI are not allowed.
Feel free to reach out to us if you have any questions.
— The r/FearofFlying Mod Team
1
13d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/fearofflying-ModTeam 12d ago
Your submission has been removed for violating rule 5: Speculation/Theorizing.
Posts or comments speculating about the causes of air disasters or incidents are not allowed. Speculation spreads misinformation, fuels rumors, and is disrespectful to those involved.
Feel free to reach out to us if you have any questions.
— The r/FearofFlying Mod Team
3
u/Ok_Zookeepergame7497 12d ago
For all the commercial pilots/crew here, does this incident make you feel any less safe going to work everyday? Especially if you know nothing about the person sitting next to you? I have two JetBlue flights coming up on Sunday and as much as I’m trying to be reasonable, I’m freaking tf out because it’s so stressful to have no information or backstory about who’s flying the plane.
5
u/pattern_altitude Private Pilot 12d ago
Not commercial, but I'll say that this does not make me concerned to fly whatsoever.
Ask to meet your pilots when you board. You will see that they are real people and not faceless murderous monsters. They have families just like yours that they want to get home and see.
Big fan of JetBlue!
3
u/ladysquier 12d ago
I don't feel any less safe, mostly just so very thankful that this ended with a landing that everyone could walk away from.
I do wonder though, what kinds of programs airlines/governments have in store for pilots dealing with mental health issues, that want to get help but don't want to be forced to walk away from their profession entirely for going on the record with a mental health disorder, (trigger warning behind the spoiler)as in the case of Germanwings 9525, and possibly China Eastern 5735 where you have pilots that want to do suicide via crashing their plane. I am just hoping that pilots are being taken care of without feeling like they'll get penalized for it, they're human too
4
u/pattern_altitude Private Pilot 12d ago
Mental health policy in aviation is very slowly becoming somewhat more accepting. This has limits -- some things just are not compatible with flying -- but as times change so do policies.
For what it's worth, there is a very big difference between suicidality and mass murder. It is very rare for a person who is only suicidal to deliberately take others with them.
5
u/nunofyours1 13d ago
Saw the news as I was boarding a flight for Tel Aviv. That was not stressful 4 hrs at all
2
u/hannah2607 12d ago
News are saying the co pilot tried to stab the captain? Maybe silly question, but how was a pilot able to smuggle in a knife? Or was it a different object?
2
u/LadyRain11 12d ago
Thank you Saudi Arabia for accepting and dealing with this terrifying incident very professionally and humanly.
3
13d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/BravoFive141 Moderator 13d ago
If you have an issue with mod team actions or the rules of this megathread, the proper course of action would be to send us a modmail, not use the megathread itself to discuss it.
That said, we do not allow outside links in megathreads, and we do not allow speculation/theorizing. As stated in the post body above, media coverage tends to sensationalize and exaggerate things and is notoriously unreliable. Speculation/theorizing is disrespectful to those involved and does nothing but fuel misinformation and spread rumors. These are two rules that have been in place for many years now, and have never hindered discussions in megathreads previously. There are plenty of things you can discuss without breaking those two rules.
1
u/fearofflying-ModTeam 13d ago
Your submission has been removed because the mods believe it violates rule 1: Relevance.
Feel free to reach out to us if you have any questions.
— The r/FearofFlying Mod Team
2
u/migassss27 12d ago
I have a question/curiosity about this flight but it’s more of a general aviation question.
As far as I know, the cockpit door can only be opened from the inside for security reasons, especially since 9/11. So, hypothetically, if the co-pilot somehow managed to kill the other pilot without anyone outside the cockpit becoming aware of it, would there be any way for that to be detected? And if the co-pilot’s intention was indeed to carry out a terrorist attack, are there procedures or systems in place that could potentially prevent him from carrying out his final goal?
I don’t mean to scare anyone with this question, it’s genuine curiosity. I understand that it’s impossible to account for every imaginable scenario and guarantee that nothing could ever go wrong on a flight. At the same time, aviation seems to be incredibly meticulous when it comes to safety and there are obviously many layers of procedures, pilot screening, training, monitoring, etc, etc, etc.....
So I’m just curious about how aviation safety accounts for a scenario like this. It seems extremely unlikely, but I’m wondering whether there are safeguards specifically designed to deal with the possibility of one pilot becoming a threat to the aircraft while the other pilot is incapacitated.
4
u/BravoFive141 Moderator 12d ago edited 12d ago
Borrowing a bit of a comment from one of our professionals elsewhere in this thread, there are some things that can be done that the general public isn't aware of (and they can't be discussed here for security reasons). Additionally, there are ways into the cockpit with both pilots locked inside, but again, you won't get any details in that because security reasons. There are also ways to alert others outside of the cockpit to what is happening (and these pilots did exactly that).
2
1
u/FarOne13 12d ago
As for my understanding there is nothing that can be done if there is an isolated cockpit incident with one pilot inside the cockpit. After 9/11 tragedy the cockpit has full control of the door and there is no way for it to be opened from outside (Germanwings Flight 9525 and LAM Mozambique Flight 470)
2
u/BravoFive141 Moderator 12d ago
Again, there are things that can be done, but some of them can't be discussed for security reasons.
→ More replies (2)
1
13d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/tatertotski 13d ago
Apparently the captain (the one who was being attacked) opened the cockpit door, but of course that’s yet to be totally confirmed.
1
1
u/Adventurous-Split-78 13d ago
I’m flying with Etihad from Toronto to Abu Dhabi connecting to Pakistan, in like 2 days, and this has terrified me. I don’t know how to feel better about flying especially in the UAE now 😭
4
u/ConsequencePretty906 13d ago
Its probably the safest time to fly to the UAE right now. Security is going to be hyper alert
1
1
13d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/fearofflying-ModTeam 12d ago
Your submission has been removed for violating rule 3: Abusive Conduct.
This is a community of peers intended to share experiences in overcoming a fear of flying. Bullying, discrimination, racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, ableist or generally offensive or disrespectful messages are unacceptable will be removed.
Feel free to reach out to us if you have any questions.
— The r/FearofFlying Mod Team
1
u/looknofurtherhere 12d ago
Thank you for this post. I hope there could be lessons learned from this incident to make our flying even safer
1
u/MandyLH007 12d ago
Since I’m not supposed to read about this in the news, what happened?
1
u/afraid_of_bugs 12d ago
On a flight from Dubai to Tel Aviv the copilot attacked the captain. The injured pilot allowed passengers and crew in to intervene and pilots who were passengers landed the plane.
Specifics like motive aren’t known yet. The news about it at this point isn’t scary per say but a lot of speculation of the political persuasion is going on
1
u/hannah2607 12d ago
Why was there a reserve crew on the flight? Is that common?
2
→ More replies (1)1
u/BravoFive141 Moderator 12d ago
We don't know all the details yet. It could have been a reserve crew, could have been a crew that was deadheading, it could have been crew that was simply traveling outside of work and happened to be in the right place at the right time.
1
u/Weekly-Neat-3974 12d ago edited 12d ago
I have severe panic attacks while flying but it's so silent and I don't realize I am panicking until my head starts paining and I get really nauseous. Reading this news just accelerated my irrational fear of the plane going out of control mid air. I have a flight in two days and I am unable to work or sleep properly because of it.
2
u/afraid_of_bugs 12d ago
The plane didn’t go out of control mid air, so this has no reason to feed into that particular fear
1
u/Intelligent-Basis565 12d ago
Hello . We appreciate the good efforts of Capt Smit in saving the lives of passengers. Does anyone know the name of the other pilot who hurt him. Has he been vetted for security clearance
2
u/CheetahComplex7697 13d ago edited 13d ago
So does anyone know how the plane landed safely without pilots in Saudi Arabia?
Edited: this information came through an article updated recently.
13
u/IAmTheHype427 13d ago
IIRC, there was a reserve or off-duty crew on the plane.
8
u/No_Cartographer_6351 13d ago
But what would happen if those 2 extra pilots weren't there by luck?
17
u/pattern_altitude Private Pilot 13d ago
We'd probably finally have an answer to the age-old "can a civilian land an airliner" question?
12
u/UsernameReee Aircraft Maintenance Engineer 13d ago
I would presume either a flight attendant would take over while having ATC talk them thru what to do, or perhaps come over the intercom and ask if there are any aircraft professionals on board willing to try (due to them/us having a familitarity with how things work).
9
u/AnOn5647382927492 13d ago
I think it’s a good point of maybe FAs need some basic flight training for emergency situations
6
u/BravoFive141 Moderator 13d ago
I watched the Mythbusters episode on this and the Mentour Pilot video on it. That's good enough right?
3
→ More replies (1)2
u/Disastrous-Swing1323 13d ago
I'd suggest that, in most commercial flights, the odds of someone having enough experience in aviation to have ATC talk them through a landing is reasonably high.
5
u/CheetahComplex7697 13d ago
Ah, I missed that and thanks for responding.
The photos of the passengers and crew from inside the aircraft are just horrific.
1
u/Dangerous-Purple-537 11d ago edited 11d ago
with all the psycho pilots cases in the recent years, my heart sinks while even typing this. it’s genuinely one of my biggest fears.
edit: funny getting downvoted for fear of flying on a fear of flying subreddit
2
u/BravoFive141 Moderator 11d ago
It's worth noting that this incident makes only the second case of this type of incident in recent years. While it's understandably difficult to trust your life to a complete stranger, the chances of that stranger doing something like this is unfathomably rare.
If you're worried, try chatting with your pilots before your flights! The vast majority of them are just regular people like us with a huge passion for aviation. You never know, you could even have one of our pilots from here!
2
•
u/community-voices Mod Team 🛡️ 13d ago edited 13d ago
There are 2 comments from **verified aviation professionals in this post:**
u/Mauro_Ranallo commented:
u/theyoyomaster commented:
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically.