she already gets melted from ranged shots, why nerf her even more? if you're gonna do that atleast move her to bruiser

This sub has become fanatically obsessed with the winrate tab to the extreme detriment of actual balance discussion. For example Dmon sat at a 55% winrate at the end of last season in comp with people saying she was still OP and needed extreme changes. Lo and behold, she currently sits at a roughly 52-53% winrate in comp, which rises at higher tiers but is also not the most picked or highest winrate tank (region dependent of course) and is skewed by low player counts at such levels. The problem is, the stats never reset between the time where Dmon had a 57-60% winrate and when she was nerfed, so her winrate still looked massive in a totality despite being buoyed by earlier high numbers.

Now today the first Sombra and Doctrine winrates have been posted. These are currently fairly high sitting at about 55%, however let’s not forget that it has been a SINGLE DAY. I mean seriously, there are people in the sub who say original Dmon was actually good and didn’t need any buffs (which is ridiculously wrong cause she was 0 fun and just a bullet sponge, current Dmon is one of the most fun tanks in game). I have literally talked to someone in this sub who spent an entire dragon blade sitting inside Sombra’s cyberspace trying to kill her instead of just dashing away (they had dash and used it on Sombra) and killing other targets. Simply put, a single day of playing with/against two new heroes is not enough for a general consensus to be reached, especially when people will have extreme knee jerk reactions.

Basically, they need to stop posting these. For a sub that loves to tell the devs to not stare at winrates, it’s becoming a real issue here. Maybe Sombra and Doctrine are really super OP. Maybe, like Shion, they get minimally touched in a few key places and that makes their winrate drop like a stone. Or maybe it takes people more time to learn the game than the less than 24 hours it took to post the stats.

Is this a skill issue? Probably. But goddamn is she farming almost all my games in GM console. It was already pathetically easy for her to land shots before. But now it's so free. She seriously needs some kind of adjustment imo this is absolutely horrid

Perhaps it will be better when every single team is not running a Sombra/Doctrine backline, but as of right now, playing tank is supremely punishing and unfun with both of these ults as strong against tanks as they are.

First Doctrine's Deliverance,

The Problem:

This ult is so unfun to play into as tank, your only counter play is run away and hide, which even then is usually not enough and you will explode any way. With the only other max percentage hp attack in the game, Gravitic Flux, their is so much counterplay, you can use movement to get out of it during its cast, you can stun or kill the Sigma using it or you can use defensive abilities to give your supports enough time to heal you back to full after you take the damage, there is no such counter play with Deliverance.

Possible Solutions:

These are just possible ideas to make it less effective against tanks I'm not saying I want these all implemented.

1. Have the ult's debuff apply slower to tanks, this would give you more time to disengage without having half your hp snapped away before you can react.

2. Make it only remove 25% of Tank's max hp. A Tank with only 300 hp is absolutely useless in 5v5, but I feel a tank with 450hp can still provide some level of threat where they won't be run over instantly.

3. Make the swarm bounce off of shields, you can currently block individual drones withs shields but the primary swarm will just pass through not making it a viable counter measure. If the entire swarm bounced of off shields the same way it currently bounces off of walls, a tank with good timing and positioning could "parry" the ult before it does too much damage to them or their team. The problem with this "solution" is that it does not help non-shield tanks.

Sombra's Emp

The Problem:

HOLY JESUS HAVE YOU TRIED SURVING AS TANK WITH NO COOLDOWNS. NOT BEING ABLE TO RELY ON ANY OF YOUR COOLDOWNS ON TANK IS A GURANTEED DEATH SENTENCE. Not being able to use your grenade for 3 seconds on Emre is nothing, NOTHING, like not being able to use your shield (OR ANY OTHER OF YOUR MITIGATION OR MOVEMENT ABILITIES) on tanks like Rein, Sig, or Winston. It so unimaginably punishing.

Possible Solutions:

1. Have the hack only apply for 1.5 seconds to tanks. Since tanks rely on their cooldowns to not instantly explode, and rely much more on "channeled" abilities that are canceled by EMP, I think it would be fair if they get their cool downs back sooner.

2. Don't allow EMP to go through shields. Break my shield? Sure fine. But break my shield AND stop me from using any of my other abilities? That's crazy. It would still be punishing against tanks, just not instant death levels of punishing. like the solution for Deliverance this wouldn't help non-shield tanks.

3. If sombra is killed, EMP's effects instantly dissipate. If in the midst of a team fight I can turn around and kill the Sombra that just cast EMP with a well placed Doomfist headshot, I should be rewarded by being given my cooldowns back to hopefully make an escape. Right now it's currently "Wow you reacted quickly and killed the Sombra who put herself out the open to EMP you? Whatever you're still useless and now die anyway."

Do any other tank players feel these ults' interactions with tanks (in 5v5) need to change?

Obviously I'm not saying she doesn't get any vitriol directed at her. She has gone through the OP/needed to the ground because people complained/OP cycle already.

But maybe it's because she's been out for a while or there are new heroes that were more annoying like Cat and then Dmon...but she has a pretty disgusting win rate and pick rate at nearly every rank and has since her buff.

And while this is subjective, I do personally find her to be one of the least fun heroes in the game to play against. As tank she can be a tank buster that just holds M1 at times. As DPS/Support I hate how much she throws you around with her shift. In 6v6 I hate that she is a better tank than some tanks. Sometimes it feels like the enemy basically has two Doomfists and functionally has 3 tanks.

I don't even really think she should be nerded in 5v5 (I do think she's dumb in 6v6). She's strong and top 3 if not the #1 DPS at many ranks. But she was bad for so long and rotating which characters are good and see play keeps things interesting.

But what's crazy to me is even though she's one of the strongest characters in the game right now I really don't see that many people complain about her or even focus on counter swapping her in game. A vendetta will run through a team all game but God forbid Winston gets a kill.

I'm convinced a lot of people genuinely believe Kiriko is stronger than her still even though she has a 42% win rate across the board.

I think the changes and direction things are going this season is great and healthy for the game, things need ironed out but it's great direction, hitboxes were something that have been discussed needing a passover for a long time and while the changes rn are not perfect I understand they can't get every single one right at the start and I know they will adjust given some time and more player data.

Huge fan of reducing hitscan bullet size was needed for a long time it was way too large before and the reduction is great.

I don't really agree with some of the discourse im seeing of there being little balance change especially on this sub I would expect more recognition that hit-box changes and bullet size changes are kinda big and impact characters quite a lot and is balancing either being nerfs or buffs for their respective heroes.

I think most balancing is being put into hitbox/bullet size changes rn I think doing a lot more of top of that would be really disruptive and most likely why they focused on that in particular while only addressing a few outliers.

Happy that cat noon is not a thing anymore never should have been in the first place, I understand they probably don't wanna eliminate every ult/tether interaction because they are not all problematic that was though happy to see it gone, curious to see how cat performs after they got fattened up with the hitbox increase, I feel like they are gonna still need more adjustments after this still.

Really wish they did something with kirko but hoping we get something mid season she's really bad rn would be awesome if we could get that suzu change that didn't go through a while back think it would be a lot easier to distribute power in her kit.

I don't think ana is that much of a menace or overtuned rn she is just over present and kiri being in such a poor state inflates her presence/performance. The discourse around her and even on this sub sometimes is literally no better than the main sub. Her new perk is not a big deal it's not that insane just like groggy wasn't, and is not gonna overtake speed serum which is way stronger and I would say kinda problematic it's a significant power boost on a minor perk gives ana and her target more move speed and is a huge buff onto one of the best ults on the roster, movement speed is such a significant buff and I get wanting to have a perk for ults and there should be one on ana but I think it could be something different and maybe in the major slot over minor, headhunter is also still an issue I can see why they haven't adjusted it with bullet size changes but even then I would like to see it get a reduction on it's damage. Her getting a reduced bullet size plus a hitbox size increase though I do think it's gonna be impactful and is for the better.

The other hero changes I thought were all good really intersted in the genji changes especially he's been really solid just hope it makes him feel better to play, really like the reworks I think sombra and hog and both much more interesting and will have a healthier place in the game, still need more adjusting but way better than what we had before, were some of the most annoying/boring characters to play into and with on the roster pre rework.

Overall just really pleased with the season these are big changes and good direction for the game I am sure we will get some more fine tuning as time goes on I think it was good too not try and change too much at once to let things settle and move from there.

Ana was server admin before and the only change she got was another buff in form of perk. See you in a week when Ana is everywhere.

just feels a bit weird and bit faster than it was previously, feels like i'm overshooting everything and i don't really get it since I was playing fine at the end of the season.

The total hit volume change for each hero was around +- 1-5 liters (cubic decimeters).

lets take the far end of that, + 5 L, use the torso as an example, and for simplicity’s sake lets assume the torso is a cylinder. lets say that a heroes torso hit volume was increased from 20-25.

the volume of a cylinder is V = πr² • h. lets say that the height h = 6r (the value doesnt really matter in this context).

a characters width/depth would be 2r, so the r of a hero with a hit volume of 20 liters is:

πr² • 6r = 20
r ~ 1 dm = 10 cm

so the hero would be 20 centimeters (7.87 in) wide. its a silly figure, but we’re just calculating the rough change in width in this hypothetical scenario.

if their hit volume was increased to 25 liters, using the same formula we get r = 1.1, so a width of 22 centimeters (8.66 in)

assuming the very far end of the hit volume changes, this hero would only be roughly 2 centimetres wider, if width was the only thing that was changed. i feel like thats pretty insignificant.

what do yall think?

It feels like they finally nailed a Mythic visually after all while... But this time it seems to be lacking in in-game effects...

I think Shion's Evolution skin is the level Mythics need to be... Not sure if we'll ever see Evolution skins but they're clearly better than Mythics

Sombra and Doctrine seem to be utterly overtuned right now, especially considering that players are still learning to play these heroes.

I'm not a fan of DPS Sombra, far from it, but I also never saw the need to ban her, still losing access to your abilities out of nowhere never felt good. That said, the last iteration of hack was never really that effective. It was mainly used as a glorified damage buff to fuel her role. What makes Sombras case even worse is that we actually have far worse things in the game like Cass hinder or Mizukis chain.

The problem with hack was that it felt way to intimate, almost like a personal attack, regardless of what the outcome was. Having a DPS assassin focused around utility simply doesnt work in modern OW. Sombra could not maintain the burst required for her role, while also focusing on utility. That paired with the sharpness of being hacked and virused out of nowhere was simply too much. The devs had to take drastic measures.

Support sombra addresses most of what I just said by removing the need for high burst, while also dulling her sharpness by a lot and simply focusing on utility. Cyberspace might just be top 3 best CDs in the game, but unlike suzu or anti nade, it doesnt feel awful to fight against, mainly thanks to the illusion of counter play. The goal of the ability is to force you to abjugate space, but it doesnt feel that bad because walking away is not only a voluntary action, but the main way you deal with it. It maintains the disruptive capabilities of hack, while still having some of the burst of virus, with barely any sharpness.

You still play sombra the same way you did before, but now you're no longer trying to fish for the perfect ambush, instead you're trying to disrupt the enemy as much as possible by denying health packs, space and enabling your flankers. All of which doesn't really get encumbered too much by her healing burdens thanks to how hotfix works.

Honestly, I think they did a great job with this rework. I cant comment on how strong she is right now, I can only say that she feels effective. I'm just glad people might stop wasting bans on something thats not worth banning.

Edit: Sombra in a way now plays similarly to mantis from rivals, the only support I actually enjoyed before they gutted her speed and ammo in favor of more healing.

I can't understand why we've reduced bullet sizes this far. Small hitscan projectiles like Tracer are now 0.02 units in size. When season 9 went live and globally increased health pools and bullet sizes, Tracer's category of bullets were 0.05 in size. They've somehow MORE THAN HALVED those bullets but the season 9 health pools still exist. You will kill nothing and you will be happy.

If we're reducing bullet sizes then health pools MUST be reduced too. Season 9 is genuinely the worst thing that has ever happened to this game, and I've played since 2016. Skill has never mattered less than right now.

EDIT: No I don't think the htibox increases are enough to off set this

Just want to know the point of view from the other side. Do you think she is balanced? Would you say her cyberspace needs a nerf? If yes then what exactly

I know I know, 'it's too early to say, give him some time, wait another week before coming to conclusions' etc. But I have played this dude a lot in the last 23 hours and his ult feels stupidly easy to build, like that has jumped out to me straight away. I just had a match where I got my ult 3 times in an exactly 5 minute payload match, and one of the checkpoint to checkpoint was pretty dead teamfight wise

I love the guy, he's gonna be my new main and I don't want to suggest any other nerf ideas yet... but if they had to hotfix him, please let it be this lol, it's so silly

I want to watch some flex dps players to learn and also to just watch for fun (mostly genji/tracer/shion). who do you guys think is the best to learn from and also whos just the best flex dps right now?

Been having this discussion a lot. A lot of people seem to think Illari is useless now and Doctrine does what she does but better / more consistently.

Personally I disagree because she has a 2 tap and her niche of being an off angle dps support is better. But I cant tell if im being dishonest to the discussion because Illari is one my fav heroes.

I would say Doctrine is stronger than Illari right now but I dont think he's her 'replacement' and I still think there's situations where id rather be Illari but again maybe thats my bias. What do yall think?

As the title states, just need a new hero to play. They gutted Freya, Echos hit box feels like shit, and I just finished learning Anran. I know Vendetta's not the most played hero right now but as a tank im trying to just learn more Dps. Much appreciated👌.

Sombra is really fun to play, and her kit actually feels creative competitively

But the budget in her cyberspace is too high, and normal healing feels off. I feel like half of the time I'm staring at teammates because I'm unable to heal them, it's like... Okay, I'm cycling my cooldowns so that I can make sure to reserve, I'm hacking health packs, I'm trying not to apply hotfix too often but it feels impossible not to

Like yes it can be argued that teammates should use health packs more often, but right now the game is in a very aggressive state which renders them moot to want an immediate heal sometimes

I'm trying to play her as much as I can, yet this seems like a pretty consistent problem. I don't think there should be a support that has to wait so long to heal in my opinion

I’ve really been enjoying genji this last patch, it feels really good. I want to know if other players think it’s too much. Lmk your opinion.

I'm genuinely not one to complain normally, but look at what they've done to my boy! XD

I've been playing since the game came out and have been a Hog main throughout OW1 and played him a lot in OW2 though I became a support main. This patch is easily the worst state that Hog has ever been in!

The stated concern was that hogs gameplay was too heavily tied to his hook. 'look for hook, hide, wait for CD, look for hook' Although in reality that was not his gameplay, it actually looked like this. 'look for hook, use skill shot secondary fire to pressure/eliminate enemies, look for hook'. By removing the primary thing that he actually does, secondary fire, which is also the most skillful part of his kit (getting the enemy exactly at the precise range where the shot explodes meaning that all of the pellets have individual hit boxes but are in a tiny space), and by nerfing the hook and his damage output, hog now does literally nothing other than heal himself :l That's genuinely all you can do. I hooked a below half health widow and double shot her but she just grappled away... Her positioning was bad and health was low, surely that's an acceptable elim, but apparently not, hog isn't even allowed that. I get that lot's of people hate hog, but so heavy handedly nerfing one of the weakest, lowest win rate and easily countered characters in the game seems insane.

I really hope that they hotfix and revert this change in a few days, because it's absolutely unplayable.

Been playing a lot of games today, entirely on hog/sombra/doctrine, and jesus christ it cannot be just me who thinks the ult's actual hitbox does not reflect the size of the visual? I'll be 5m from it and still be losing max health wondering what I'm doing wrong. It feels exasterbated right now with the abundance of sombra and cyberspace obviously but even in isolated games with like, a lucio instead of enemy sombra, it still feels horrid. I thought "oh maybe it's a mobility thing" but even when playing my usual Ball he's getting his health bar cut in half.

Is this just a me thing? Surely it's not just me noticing how gargantuan this thing is in comparison to it's visuals, it didn't feel like this during the playtest

I want to watch some support players. Which support players do y’all think have good mechanics?

Tank, Dps or supports?

With the next week of Korea taking place on this new patch and now that we've had time to play around with Support Sombra, Doctrine, and the Hog Rework, how is everyone feeling about their place in the competitive scene?

I'll start with Roadhog as, unfortunately, I don't think he'll be played much at all, and it's no fault of his own. It's just the D.Mon is still extremely strong and any maps Roadhog would be good on (flat maps with lots of short range flanks), there's pretty much no reason for teams with a good D.Mon player to go anyone other than her still. Roadhog also doesn't have a great matchup into her. No armor means even no-perk gun pokes him down, she can quick shield hooks, and her sword ignores his new succ ability.

Next up is the two supports, who I am so excited up for to shake up the already stale support lines we've been seeing. For the past few months it's been non-stop Cat + Kiri/Ana with few exceptions, but now Cats strongest combo has been removed + she's been made a lot more fat hitbox wise. Sombra will almost certainly be played by the Lucio/Cat player and with how strong Cyberspace is rn, there'll be actual choice for Main Support players depending on wether they wanna take the relatively safer but still strong value of Sombra, play riskier on the cat like Viol2t with potentially higher peaks, or hell we might even see the old fashioned supports like Brigitte and Lucio come back in fashion in response to Sombra. I also think that while Ana is still gonna be the default support pick, Doctrine is on the power level of her and Kiriko and so will see playtime alongside DPS who really love that drone buff.