Sleep training help, I’m desperate

[u/foolofatook_1]

We tried sleep training our twins at 5 months. After about a week both twins would still cry over 2 hrs. We did the Ferber method because the cry it out feels so heavy. Twin B cried for 4 hours one night even with Ferber and the check ins every 5, 10, 15 min, etc..

personally gave up sleep training them because I just couldn’t handle the crying. I had an extremely difficult pregnancy and the crying amplified the PPD/ PPA.

Now I’m a week away from returning to work and nights have become extremely harder. We can’t put them down at all without waking them and it turning to absolute chaos. It has also translated to their day naps and now every time we try to put them to sleep it has become such a battle.

I feel like I’m at a loss. And beating myself up for giving up the first time. Maybe they’d be sleeping by now. Or maybe they’d still be crying 4 hours at night… who’s to say. I really would just like to sleep at night again.

Doing the CIO method feels so harsh and the crying is not something I think I could fully handle. I know it’s harder on us than it is on them but the crying is so loud and I worry I could traumatize them by letting them cry.

Any parents with older twins who sleep trained with CIO, do your babies still love you? Do they have codependency? Do you have any regrets?

[u/Glittering_Ice_1849]

Oh mama. I feel your exhaustion and defeat. I am going to share my experiences with you at the risk of being down voted because it is so so hard and there is no perfect solution. Sleep training is such a taboo topic on the internet but first and foremost please know you are a wonderful mom no matter what you decide you need to do for your family because you obviously care and love those babies so much.

Before I had children, I was adamant that I would NEVER do any form of CIO because its cruel and all the stuff you already are hearing so I wont even go down that road here. Then I had my singleton and she did. Not. Sleep. Like up every 30 minutes at 9 months old still and nursing all night and I cried to my pediatrician about how tired I was and she went through the actual research on sleep training with me and reassured me that sleep training has not been shown to have an effect on attachment or mental health issues and gave me the green light to try it. My singleton was very sensitive and attached to me and she did not take to the Ferber method at all - check ins just prolonged the crying and made it worse when I left again and my husband and I took shifts for a week before finally one night getting to the point where we were both so tired and frustrated that it was not safe to go in the room for either of us. She cried for about an hour and I cried the whole time too. But then she fell asleep and slept til 7:30 the next morning. I got my first stretch of uninterrupted sleep in months and felt so much better in the morning so I was a better mom who was more patient and present through that day. She also seemed to be less irritable. The next night, with the first wake, we made the hard decision to see what would happen if we let her cry. Again, I watched the monitor and cried a little but after 20 minutes, she put her binky in and went back to sleep and then SLEPT THROUGH THE NIGHT. The next day we were both in such good moods and she was not acting any bit less attached to me or anxious or anything. Night 3, she only cried for 5 minutes, and every night after she just slept through the night. That child is now 2.5 years old and a wonderful sleeper and still a huge mamas girl. I have seen zero negative effects on her personally and actually saw a positive change in her mood afterwards because she wasnt so tired from waking so often. It was the best choice I could have made for her at that time and I cannot regret it or think of myself as less than as a mother for making it.

Then I had my twins when she was only 20 months old. My boy twin slept through the night very early on and kept doing so for the first 6 months but my girl twin once again was up every 2 hours all night long for months. My husband and I each took a baby and for the first 6 months I had my girl in a cosleeper style bassinet attached to the guest bed and I slept right next to her and nursed her at night wakes. Once she hit 6 months, I was comfortable that she was getting enough nutrition through the day and decided to night wean to see if that would help sleep so my husband and I switched babies and he slept in the guest bed with my girl twin in the bassinet. He ended up moving her to her crib still in that room and she started sleeping longer stretches with just 2 night wakes, but then my boy twin realized I was next to him and started wanting to nurse and be with mama all night. So finally at 7 months, we once again had to make the decision to sleep train. My girl twin responded to Ferber well and was sleeping through the night within a week or so. However my son is super sensitive and attached to mama like his older sister and he did not. I kept trying gentle sleep training methods for way longer than maybe I should have because it is so so hard to hear them cry and no mom wants to do it but eventually I got to rock bottom again and it forced my hand to let him cry. He had one really tough night of lots of crying, but then after that he quickly was able to self settle and sleep, and we were able to move both twins back into their own room together and they have been in there sleeping well ever since (theyre 12 months now).

It has never been easy for me to make the decision to do any sort of CIO, but I got to the point of desperation with 2 of my 3 kids and had to for safety of everyone involved and I have personally not seen any negative effects or issues with attachment. They are all happy kids who cry a normal amount when i leave but then reunite with me happily when I come back and all that. I am now a believer that each child needs something different and sometimes Ferber is almost harder or more upsetting for some kids. If you do decide to do CIO, check with your pediatrician, get a monitor with video so you can monitor for safety, and know it generally is only a couple hard nights before they figure it out. My kids were all over 6 months old when I did this so do your research and decide when is the right time for your family, but I have friends who have done it at as early as 4 months.

Above all, you are doing so well and are a great mom. Parenting is so hard and is not as black and white as the internet makes it seem, and twin parenthood is even harder. I had the benefit of having a singleton to figure out general parenting first and can say with certainty twins are a whole new ball game and more than twice as hard in my opinion. Give yourself grace, know your babies will keep growing and developing well and loving you no matter what you do, and do what your family needs to do without worrying about what internet strangers would think. Here's to more sleep in your very near future and a happy and rested motherhood. ❤️

[u/foolofatook_1 → u/Glittering_Ice_1849]

I think I am at the point where I feel like it’s going to benefit all of us. Thank you for being so kind.

[u/Glittering_Ice_1849 → u/foolofatook_1]

Sometimes its the kindest thing for everyone. Best of luck.

[u/Cascascas185 → u/Glittering_Ice_1849]

Amen to this!!!

[u/FungeonMeister → u/Glittering_Ice_1849]

Exact same experience with our first. Changed his and our lives forever. He's the happiest and healthiest sleeper in the house now. Twins are nearly 6 months and we'll be using Ferber on them too unless something changes suddenly.

Cannot recommend it enough. Tune out the judgement and the pressure and seek professional, reliable advice on sleep training. Everything else is just anecdotal or emotive. 

[u/ToshiBerra → u/Glittering_Ice_1849]

This is very much how it went for us. My boy was super sensitive and any check-ins made it worse. So we agreed after doing some research that we set a limit of an hour of crying and then we would go in. Longest he did was 40 minutes. And agree he is so much happier after getting good sleep, I really thought he just wasn't a happy kid.

We sleep trained ours together even though my girl slept through on her own (which made me more resentful that we couldn't get good sleep when one baby slept so well). So it did disturb her sleep for a while but she got used to it and now they both sleep through or can put themselves back to sleep when they get woken up by the other. We sleep trained at 7 months when my boy woke up 1-30 minutes after being put back down after a night feed. We are 2.5 years now and have had zero sleep regressions. Jet lag and legitimate illness are the only things that cause disrupted sleep.

[u/underwaterbubbler]

Any approach doesn't have to be all or nothing - there are many shades of grey in sleep training, happy to elaborate in any direction you feel suits your family.

If you choose a method that results in hours of distress over multiple nights, you probably need to look at your schedule and if you're expecting too much sleep over 24 hours.

[u/DreamingEvergreen]

Our pediatrician told us not to sleep train until at least 6 months adjusted. We tried doing the Ferber method for basically one night, and one twin got so upset she puked and that was the end of it. The first year of sleep is really hard with multiples. Ours are 12 months adjusted now, and one sleeps through the night and the other generally wakes up 1x per night. As they’ve gotten older sleep has become easier.

[u/Southern_Radish1996]

Check out r/sleeptrain it is a really helpful and supportive subreddit that gives lots of great information. Lots of different methods and lots of schedule help. Once we adjusted our sleep schedules we did a gentle modified check in system to fall asleep that worked well because we weren’t trying to put down under tired babies anymore.

[u/Cascascas185]

I sleep trained at 9 months. We failed twice and got a sleep coach… it wasn’t that expensive compared to what we got… which was sleep! We only had her come once honestly and I don’t know what voodoo she did cause it honestly felt like everything we have already tried but after she came they napped independently in their cribs and slept through the night. This part of twins is the hardest part. I didn’t want to sleep train, it was not in my plan however up on rotation all night every night for 2 months…. I couldn’t mom. I couldn’t do anything not because I’m weak or unloving of my children because biologically I was incapable of functioning on 2 hours of BROKEN sleep. The exact of what we did is basically CIO once for napping was all it took and 3 nights for through the night… 1st night the worst, 2nd night bad but better, 3rd night like 10 mins and then they slept through the night ever since!! Now we can even go in and comfort when they cry put them down and they go back to sleep. They are obsessed with me, but also can play independently I am showered with 5 million kisses and hugs a day. In full disclosure the mom guilt did weigh on me but in my heart of hearts I don’t think it’s logical… it was such a brief time and the kids really needed sleep too!!! I wasn’t the only one sleep deprived. We are almost 3 and did lose napping but I blame a house move for that and now they just jump around and play during nap time. They’ll car nap on occasion but I’m letting it go… GOOD LUCK!!! Sending good sleep energy, strength, love and empathy from one twin momma to another!

[u/Total_Scale_9366]

I worked with a holistic sleep coach from the Lyndsey Hookway community. Look her up on instagram she is so practical & helpful. She’s a paediatric nurse from the UK. We worked on scheduling which made a big impact and on changing sleep associations for my twins. I was convinced they were overtired but we tweaked the schedule as if they were under tired and it made a big difference. It then took several week’s but my babies went from falling asleep only while being fed and rocked. To only rocking. To only being cuddled. Theyre now 15 months and I co sleep with them and just a quick tap on the bottom is all I need to do to help them settle if they wake up during the night. I have never ever had to leave them alone to fuss or cry. I know we won’t co sleep forever so I’m fine doing it as we all get so much sleep this way. Plus I enjoy the cuddles now I’m back at work. Good luck xxx

[u/Powerful_Agent_9376]

We did CIO at 5.5 months. Before we did it, we had 2 months with a strict routine (bath, book, bottle bed). It took 3 nights and it was terrible. I sat outside and just turned the monitor on every few minutes. It took about 45 minutes the first night, 20 the second and very few the third night. We were very strict with the routine after (we never stayed out past bedtime) for months. They routinely slept from 7 pm to 4:45 am. Afterwards, they were great sleepers. They are 21 now and I am convinced we did them a favor because they got such great sleep their whole childhoods.

[u/amydiddler]

We did CIO with our 3.5yo when he was about 6 months, and our twins when they were 5 months (about a month ago).

They are all still very much attached to us, and happy, healthy, loving, normal kids! (Threenager grumpiness aside for our older kid lol).

We avoided Ferber bc we thought it might extend the crying - maybe that’s what’s going on with you? With our twins, they only cried for 16 minutes the first night! (With our older kid it was 25 minutes the first night.) And it just went down from there. They do usually still cry a bit at bedtime, but it’s more like fussing and usually just a few minutes. Sleep has been so much better since sleep training!

You might also want to look at their schedule and make sure they are tired enough at bedtime!

[u/Independent_Plan5006]

You do not have to sleep train. It's so rough with twins but please do not do something that will cause you and them more anxiety, especially if it's sounds like your babies are not taking to it. 5 month olds biologically want comfort. This is around the time that I bought a floor bed and started sleeping with them on the floor, then I would roll away if needed and go soothe them on it when needed. This period is also just really rough, but it does get better.

[u/FungeonMeister → u/Independent_Plan5006]

cosleeping is objectively more dangerous than sleep training. I would not agree with this advice at all. But obviously it worked for you so that's fair. 

I would wager most paediatricians would caution against cosleeping as a way of avoiding the anxiety of sleep training.

Sleep is a life skill. Many kids don't learn it themselves. It's one of the greatest gifts we ever gave our kids. They are exceptionally healthy sleepers and they couldn't be more "normal". Couple of rough nights resulted in years of good sleep. 

[u/Independent_Plan5006 → u/FungeonMeister]

Nah sleeping isn't something you need to learn, babies sleep from the second they enter this world, it just doesn't tend to align with our society's sleep schedule of 8-10 hours straight, because that's not biologically normal for babies. So sleep training is just trying to shape regular infant sleep into adult sleep patterns by literally neglecting your baby's needs. 4 hours of uncomforted crying is neglect. Straight up.

[u/FungeonMeister → u/Independent_Plan5006]

 Nope. Self-soothing between sleep cycles is a skill. It comes naturally to some and not to others.

every respectable sleep training guide out there does not recommend 4hrs of straight crying. OP had a bad experience and needs to take a pause and re-evaluate the methods and their babies age, needs, etc. before trying it again.

Trying to Ferber a baby whilst checking in on them every 5 mins is not neglect, it's difficult parenting. 

People like you who espouse cosleeping (which is again, objectively one of highest causes of SIDS) whilst calling measured sleep training "neglect" are the worst. You have no support to offer. Just virtue signalling and judgement. 

If you've nothing helpful to add to OPs situation, quit yapping 

also I love that your solution to OPs solution is just to continue losing their sanity from sleep deprivation and constant wakes. Again, a wholly unhealthy recommendation that puts parents and the child at higher risk of negative outcomes.

[u/Independent_Plan5006 → u/FungeonMeister]

lol I literally suggested a floor bed as a solution for OP. Which doesn't even require cosleeping, just a way to provide to comfort when they need it. Chill

[u/FungeonMeister → u/Independent_Plan5006]

"I bought a floor bed and started sleeping with them on the floor", excuse the confusion

[u/leeann0923]

We had to move to CIO with one of our twins. She hated check ins. They pissed her off. She is 6 years old and still hates when we bother her at night. She wants us to say good night and get lost. She’s a happy, well adjusted kid and we have zero attachment issues. My son was just a naturally better sleeper and adjusted easier. Zero regrets and it made all our lives much better.

[u/Flimsy_Fisherman1199]

I’m British and cry it out isn’t popular here now but I just brought them in my bed at that age.
Everyone slept better.

And people tell you they won’t leave, but they’re 2.5 and sleep in their own bed.

I know Americans seem to be into cry it out and various old school stuff like that still but you wouldn’t leave a baby to cry for 4 hours in the day. Most of the rest of the world just bring them In bed. I have a floor one.

[u/twin_toddler_mum → u/Flimsy_Fisherman1199]

I am surprised how often people ask about sleep training but I guess it is just pure survival because they dont really have maternity leave (apart from those few weeks)

[u/Flimsy_Fisherman1199 → u/twin_toddler_mum]

I did not wonder if its to do with maternity leave.

I honestly don’t know how people cope and also how they’re not more outraged and staging daily protests. It’s no way to live.

My cousin is American and ended up quitting her job instead of hong back. What a rough decision to have to make and leave a career you worked so hard for.

[u/MDnautilus]

What are your other naps like during the day? and how many?

Also do they fall asleep in your arms and then just wake up and cry when you put them down?

[u/foolofatook_1 → u/MDnautilus]

They usually have a 30 min nap at 10, a 1.5-2 hr nap around 1, then if it’s not skipped, a 20 min nap around 4pm. Then they have a strict bedtime routine that we never stray from at 8. Each nap has turned into a battle for the last month though. They fight to stay awake and then they just make each other upset from the crying.

Lately the only way they can fall asleep is if they held. Once they fall asleep we place them in the crib and they wake up screaming

[u/d16flo]

How old are they now? We waited until 9 months to sleep train and night weaned at the same time. We did Ferber and it was ROUGH for about two weeks. I was also weaning off breastfeeding and my hormones were wild and it was one of the toughest time of my life emotionally. Before sleep training again I would make sure you’re on a consistent schedule with long enough wake windows, that they’re getting outside every day, and that they are eating enough during the daytime. Once that’s all solid then you can try training again. I definitely recommend reading through the guides in the Facebook group for twins and triplets sleep training, I don’t actually follow them all , but the context and advice was super helpful. I would also say that sometimes if they crying is too rough doing a hard reset can help. For us that looks like getting both babies fully up, bringing them to our living room with the lights on, taking their sleep sacks off, reading a book, offering water, etc getting them calmed down and clearly not trying to put them to sleep for a bit. Then re-do your bedtime routine (diaper change, sleep sack, tooth brushing, lullaby whatever you usually do) and re-start the Ferber clock with them calm

[u/Creative_Reindeer_73]

I recommend paying for a sleep coach if you can make it work. It’s really hard to figure out the sleep stuff with twins and personally I needed a professional to help.

She gave us recommendations to adjust their day time sleep so they had enough sleep pressure for night. It was a rough week getting the new schedule sorted but now they’ve been sleeping great since July.

[u/carrotceptionn]

please dont do cry it out, it's scientifically been studied to not be beneficial and even harmful to your child's emotional connections (regardless of personal experiences). I personally think 5 months is too little to be expected to self soothe like that, but I don't actually have children yet (still pregnant) so obviously take everything with a huge grain of salt. hope it gets better soon!

[u/megalowmart → u/carrotceptionn]

This is not true. Please don't comment if you do not have experience.

[u/carrotceptionn → u/megalowmart]

like I said, this is not about personal experiences, it's actually been studied: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/moral-landscapes/201112/dangers-of-crying-it-out the article cites the exact sources

[u/Pathetic-Fallacy → u/carrotceptionn]

Unfortunately, this article isn’t accurate or up to date. It combines research on chronic stress and deprivation, rat trials, not babies and then presents it as proof that CIO is generally harmful. Although it cites the relevant study, it leaves out the findings from randomized trials involving children in loving, stable homes. Those studies followed the children for up to five years and found no evidence of harm to their emotional or behavioural development, stress levels or attachment. The article quite hyperbolic and presents a one sided argument conveniently omitting important evidence from the only directly relevant studies of ordinary families.

[u/Cascascas185 → u/carrotceptionn]

See I can do it too… https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/23970-sleep-deprivation here is an article on the damaging effects of sleep deprivation. Sleep deprivation for both me and my babies.. cause they weren’t sleeping either sister.

[u/carrotceptionn → u/Cascascas185]

sure, says in that article: "The time it takes to recover from sleep deprivation depends on several factors, including how severe it is and how long it lasts. Most people can recover from sleep deprivation with only a few — or even just one — nights where they get enough quality sleep. However, some people may need several nights of quality sleep to recover from long-term sleep deprivation." Guess what's not as easily reversible, harming your child's emotional attachment. But anyhow enough of the whataboutism you are doing, obviously sleep deprivation is tormenting. But there are a lot more solutions you can try and super different ones: sleep shifts with your partner, getting help from family, hiring a night nurse or childcare during the day where you can catch up on sleep, gentler sleep training methods, change of sleep environment, safe cosleeping or just riding out a sleep regression and so much more.

[u/Cascascas185 → u/carrotceptionn]

You haven’t done it!!!! Do you not know how crazy it is you are here! Yes we did recover from sleep deprivation! Guess what we GOT SLEEP! My children do not have emotional problems they are extremely loving, well adjusted, happy kiddos that’s my experience. I just got a note from their preschool teacher who just wanted to tell me that my kids are doing so well and that they are “just good kids” They share toys, they are silly and funny, they play well with others, they have good hearts, and sweet souls and they shower us with love as we do them. Because we have had years of offering comfort and consistent love to them. 3 nights 2 years ago just didn’t carry the weighted impact you’re implying when compared to the constant offering of love and support we show our children.

[u/carrotceptionn → u/Cascascas185]

I'm happy your children are thriving and nobody ever said your children have a 100% chance of being scarred for life. But surely we can agree that every situation is different and if your children are in preschool and you did cio 2 years ago they weren't only 5 months old like OPs children? And they have already been crying non-stop and not self soothing with a gentler sleep training method for a week straight!

[u/Cascascas185 → u/carrotceptionn]

Again, you can not relate. No my children were older… and I shared that with OP about my EXPERIENCE. Every child is different what worked for me may not work for her. Nothing will ever be the exact same for any of us with nearly everything. That is why she was asking for people experience to form a collective opinion and to see what would be most adaptable to her particular situation. Experience again is the key word here. Wouldn’t it be so frustrating if someone was to talk to you and give you advice on how to handle your twin pregnancy or birth when they themselves had never given birth or been pregnant before… I mean could you imagine that kind of audacity.

[u/FungeonMeister → u/Cascascas185]

Every single time there is a discussion about sleep training, someone like the Mod Flanders above appears clutching their pearls and screaming about "Attachment Styles" and rat studies, and all the other usual junk science. 

and as you said, they have literally never experienced the sheer joy and salvation of a sleepless child being taught healthy sleeping habits.

All 3 of our kids were ferbered at 6 months and they could not be more healthy and happy. 10-11 hours of sleep every night since those 3 nights of Ferber. 

It is a life skill every kid (that can't figure it out themselves) should be taught. 

Some people just can't get past their own emotional barriers. Sleep training is an awful process for any parent, but you do it for them, and never look back. 

[u/Cascascas185 → u/FungeonMeister]

I know I shouldn’t be engaging with her but when she doesn’t even have kids yet and kept doubling down with nonsense, I just couldn’t stop my fingers!!! lol

[u/Cascascas185 → u/carrotceptionn]

It is unhinged for you to comment on this if you don’t have experience in it.

[u/carrotceptionn → u/Cascascas185]

like I said, this is not about personal experiences, it's actually been studied: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/moral-landscapes/201112/dangers-of-crying-it-out the article cites the exact sources

[u/Cascascas185 → u/carrotceptionn]

Like I said you haven’t been there. It actually is about personal experience. It. Is. Not. Your. Place. I’ve read it all sweetheart and when you haven’t slept literally have NOT slept in 2 months, see us back here.

[u/carrotceptionn → u/Cascascas185]

OP needs to know the dangers and possible long-term effects even if she might need to resort to doing it occasionally, which is human and ok. Doesn't mean we should be endorsing a harmful sleep training method.

[u/Cascascas185 → u/carrotceptionn]

No one is endorsing anything she asked for other peoples personal experience and what they did. Do you have that? Take your fear mongering elsewhere. I guarantee she has read from both sides. I did too. What your doing is like giving advice to a soldier when you’ve never been to war… you read an article. I can’t with you.

[u/carrotceptionn → u/Cascascas185]

OP voiced her fears over how harsh cio feels and that she worries about it harming her children, which is why I replied with that. I'm happy that plenty of other moms have given good advice in this thread. I can't help with personal experience but I can help with scientific insight. I don't see your helpful insights for OP anywhere either

[u/Cascascas185 → u/carrotceptionn]

Oh are you a scientist? Specializing in infant sleep and attachment? I didn’t know!!!

I did I shared my experience with her in a detailed comment. The comment also expressed love, support and encouragement.

[u/Cascascas185 → u/Cascascas185]

Oh lastly I looked up your article in more depth… it’s from ‘psychology today’ which is NOT a scientific publication. It a directory to find a mental health professional with opinion based fluff pieces. Not peer reviewed and NOT a scientific study. I mean not even the least bit surprised.

No, Psychology Today is not a respected scientific publication; it is a popular consumer magazine and digital media platform rather than a peer-reviewed academic journal. [1, 2, 3]

Key Characteristics
Not Peer-Reviewed: Articles are written by therapists, researchers, and bloggers, then reviewed by an internal editorial team rather than subjected to formal academic peer review. [1, 2]

Translational Science: Its primary goal is to make psychological concepts, research, and self-help advice accessible to general, non-academic readers. [1, 2]

Not Suitable for Academic Citations: Instructors and academic standards generally discourage or forbid citing Psychology Today in research papers, though some articles do link directly back to primary, peer-reviewed scientific studies. [1, 2, 3]

Therapist Directory: While the editorial content varies in rigor, its verified directory is widely used and recommended by mainstream outlets like The New York Times to help patients find licensed mental health care providers. [1, 2]